Adam Kay and his husband’s babies

[MatildaTheCat]

Apologies if this has already been covered.

I read in the paper this morning that AK and his DH have welcomed TWO babies into their lives, born to two different surrogates. One child is six months old and their sibling is two months old.

I genuinely cannot wrap my head around this. It seems so very odd to me. Is it a case of ‘one each’ or ‘get the baby stages over asap’?

Obviously nobody but the two parents can answer this but AIBU to find this really quite disturbing?

nothingcomestonothing · Today 21:18

ScrollingLeaves · Today 20:40

I wouldn’t judge a desperate woman, and I would feel pleased for her happiness, even if to myself I don’t think surrogacy is a good idea.

Well by that logic should we also not judge a woman who steals a baby from a maternity ward? If she's desperate and it makes her happy?

What you say is logical to an extent but it is two steps worse, as in surrogacy the mother agrees to the baby leaving her and has mentally prepared for it, and she also knows the buyers/adopters.

In the circumstance you describe though there would be the extra two elements of the mother’s intense distress at the sudden loss of her baby, and of her not knowing what sort of person had taken her child.

As for judging the baby stealer, if that means actually berating her, no, what would be the point? She must be desperate, and she must be mad. She needs psychological help.

Judging someone and thinking to yourself that someone has done a wrong thing, and thinking that wrong thing should be prevented, are separate imo.

I listened to his DID episode today. He sounded like a very damaged, unhappy man.

Because of the nature of the arrangement I don't think any surrogacy can be guaranteed to be free of coercion ESPECIALLY within families and existing friendships. There will ALWAYS be this element of guilt / duty which can be emotionally exploited. And surrogate mothers just aren't the ultra rich celebrities doing it for a poor stranger theyve met online for a reason.

Therein lies my issue - separating coercive situations from non coercive ones in so called altruistic arrangements.

It is impossible.

I also think the fallout from such arrangements if the existing relationship breaks down during its course - keeping in mind the high levels of stress it involves and how prospective parents can feel they 'own' the mother and her birth, is exceptionally high risk. And potentially much more catastrophic. It carries the real risk of destroying the extended family / support network at a time it's perhaps needed most. That's actively dangerous and could cause real harm.

Altruistic surrogacy is always seen through the lens of the greatest gift. Never the greatest risk.

Throw into the mix, the extra physical risks of a surrogate pregnancy (compared to a natural one) and the stress of doing it for someone else... What happens if you have kids, but you end up with life changing birth injuries or die because of a family member or friend? Do you think relationships can be maintained?

The risks are enormous. It's just dressed up as a wonderful thing where everyone lives happy ever after. It doesn't match reality.

So the risk of death and physical harm disappears just because they’ve agreed to it voluntarily does it?

Yes all conception is selfish but where a surrogate is not used there is no collateral
harm to others and to the child. I come back to my point: no one is entitled to a child.

Lots of children are born into less than ideal situations but that doesn’t make it ok to deliberately set out to engineer a horrible situation in order to satisfy a selfish desire either.

And it’s pretty disingenuous to say that there isn’t enough research yet to suggest it’s harmful. The harm and potential harm to the mother is obvious. And the research in an adoption context is clear.

Because of the nature of the arrangement I don't think any surrogacy can be guaranteed to be free of coercion ESPECIALLY within families and existing friendships. There will ALWAYS be this element of guilt / duty which can be emotionally exploited.

I agree with everything you have posted @RedToothBrush I've seen stories from women who acted as a surrogate for a family member whose lives when pregnant were controlled to the nth degree by those they were carrying the child for. And, yes, contrary to popular belief, the surrogate struggled after the birth and the handing over of the child but had to keep it to themselves.

Relationships have been damaged by the practice it is not all fluffy bunnies and skipping hand in hand into the sunset and that is because human emotions are involved.

At is most basic surrogacy boils down to I want a child, I can't have one so I should be able to use another woman's body for that purpose and either be given the child or pay for it.

It should be banned across the board worldwide.

If you read the stories on the Legalize Surrogacy Why Not site posted upthread, there are examples both of surrogates who experienced intense distress when their baby was taken from them, even though they always knew that was the plan, and examples of surrogates finding out too late what sort of person had taken their child - such as a convicted paedophile.

I'm not looking to berate anyone, but I do think that surrogacy should be illegal, both doing it in the UK or bringing babies into the UK from surrogacy carrried out elsewhere. None of us has the right to a child, no matter how sincerely we want one, and none of us has the right to buy the use of another person's body.

I haven't listened to it yet but I'm curious as to what it was about what he said on DID that made you come to that conclusion? I've always found him quite calm seeming and thoughtful in interviews, so am intrigued as to why he came across this way to you here.

Oh do give over.

Why don't you tell us, in light of everything that's been said BY HIM, about women, the disabled and the vulnerable, his patients, his former profession etc and everything he's done (see: surrogacy (no shit Sherlock)) why YOU still defend him and keep saying what a dude he is.

One example of Adam Kay being a decent human being, without an ounce of arrogance or prejudice or "it's all about ME" will suffice for starters.

I have been an NHS consultant for over thirty years. This man crosses so many lines for me in terms of his ‘humour’ and confidentiality. I understand dark humour and share it with close colleagues where I work. I don’t give any details to my own husband and family, never mind the wider world. He disgusts me and I am glad he no longer practises.

He was perfectly calm and thoughtful, but my overall impression was of someone very deeply sad. There was no warmth or affection in the way he spoke about his childhood and he described himself as having been born in the wrong family. TBH there was very little warmth or affection in anything he talked about.

I don't know much about him and haven't read his book (I can't, or watch the TV series, due to my own birth trauma recovery) but the interview left me with an overall feeling of sadness that is hard to put my finger on. See what you think when you listen.

On balance, babies removed from drug addicts and child abusers will highly likely suffer less trauma than they will by staying with that parent.

Babies removed unnecessarily from their mothers to go with strangers is a trauma that isn’t a safeguarding necessity.

Except mocking children with Downs Syndrome was never ‘of its time’. That’s never been the norm or socially acceptable.

So many children come into the world in unfortunate circumstances - parents who are completely useless, unloving, abusive or whatever else, and probably didn’t want the babies in the first place. Parents going through the surrogacy process seem much more likely to me to give their children a great upbringing where they are truly cared for

Why? Because they have money? What makes surrogate children less likely to abuse?

*be abused

Except mocking children with Downs Syndrome was never ‘of its time’. That’s never been the norm or socially acceptable.

I totally agree, I was agreeing with the other poster on classic literature and art. The fact this man was a doctor makes his mocking of children with Downs Syndrome more repugnant, add that to his misogyny and the measure of his character is clear.

Tbh the more I read about him the more it is clear how odious he is.

There is actually an article describing how he set out to cheat on his wife with a man and planned to do it when he was away from home so he could get away with it. His wife is clearly another woman who he saw fit to exploit and abuse, marrying her when he knew he was gay, seemingly to get some kind of validation from his parents. He also describes his experience of her miscarriage in terms that are all about him.

And it’s not enough for him to treat all these women with contempt in the flesh, he then exploits them all over again by making money out of their personal and private lives in print. He’s run out of medical stories and sob stories about his personal life now so no doubt there will be a book about his surrogacy “journey” that is all about him and his husband with no care for the mothers or children.

Yes @Embarra55ed he truly is an odious individual.

Depressing isn't it? Made acceptable by the Kardashian Krew who have bought 3 babies because they didn't want to birth them when they could quite happily do so

Because someone has gone to a lot of effort to have the baby. It didn’t just happen, perhaps inconveniently. This makes the parents much less likely to neglect the baby or resent the impact the baby has on their lives for example.

On a more general topic - is it better for a child to be born through surrogacy or not born at all?

I mean alternatively you could say that someone willing to pay for the use of someone else’s body, to pay for someone else to take the risks associated with pregnancy and labour, are people focused on their own needs above others. Framed in that way it doesn’t sound so great does it.

We can all guess can’t we. I wonder if there is any actual research on the outcomes for surrogate born people?

I think the opposite actually. I think you could make a case that someone who went to a lot of expense to acquire a child is more likely to expect to get what they want for their money. And so less likely to respond well if the child tests boundaries, or challenges them, or doesn't meet up to their expectations in some way. I think someone who hasn't gone through the indignities, for want of a better word, inherent in having a child, might well be more resentful and less equipped when the child impacts their life in a way they didn't expect or don't like. Don't assume that throwing money at something makes you appreciate what you've bought, especially once the something starts having a mind of its own.

On a more general topic - is it better for a child to be born through surrogacy or not born at all?

Do you think that is a clever 'gotcha' question?

Conception/fertilisation of the egg wouldn't have taken place would it? It only takes place because the child is being traded.

It's just laughable, the idea that the baby buyers have been through so much, a baptism of fire. Unlike the pregnant normals who drop out babies carelessly. I mean, obviously, mothers are the most devoted, you see it everywhere.

I missed that bit Hairday.

Because someone has gone to a lot of effort to have the baby.

What effort have the baby buyers gone to @ManyMaybes ? Perhaps you could let us know the effort Adam and his husband have gone to?

I'm guessing @ManyMaybes hasn't heard about the man who paid for surrogate babies to sexually abuse them and sell the footage to other paedophiles

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/may/19/man-who-sexually-abused-surrogate-twin-baby-daughters-jailed-for-22-years

And here's another paedophile buying a baby (after rejecting its twin for being disabled)

news.sky.com/story/court-rules-child-can-stay-with-paedophile-dad-10242442

And another paedophile buying twin girls

sundayguardianlive.com/lifestyle/case-exposing-double-standards-norways-cps

There are zero controls around surrogacy. For every one of the cases we know about, you can bet there are ten more which have gone under the radar.

Widespread surrogacy acceptance is a paedophile's dream.