Not to want our children to eat red meat?

[Flymeaway4]

I'm vegetarian, have been for 20 years, partner is not. Since before they were born, I've said I'll let them have chicken, fish etc, but not red meat including pork. Once they're old enough to properly understand that meat was once an animal, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to eat red meat too, or be vege if they like, their choice. Partner thinks I'm ridiculous and said "why can't she have a ham sandwich" at a party yesterday, "what harm will it do". There were plenty of other options there anyway: chicken, cheese and egg sandwiches, quiche, fruit etc.

In case you think it's relevant, my reasoning behind no red meat is that I think cows and pigs are too intelligent, they know exactly what is happening when they arrive at the abattoir and I think that's just too cruel (and lambs are babies). Allowing chicken and fish, until they can make their own informed decision, was my compromise. If it were purely up to me, I'd be happy raising them vege!

So, am I being unreasonable?

Many vegans go a lot further than not believing, @kikisparks They try to tell people what's right and what's wrong, they try to tell people what they should do. It gets more extreme, then. Do you really think that vegans are sticking to the official definition? I think that, like with any group, it's the extreme ones we hear more from and about. That's not to say that the majority aren't people who simply live according to their own beliefs, but that there are a noisy, troublesome, extreme few who do things that many vegans themselves wouldn't approve of.

It’s not really extreme IMO to tell someone what you think they should do (not that I am doing or have done that). People can try to tell me what to do if they want- if they have a decent, articulate, sensible sounding argument I might listen and consider, otherwise I just ignore them surely.

What I think most people would mean by extreme might be disrupting businesses, damaging property, attacking people, breaking into labs to stop vivisection etc and, much as I understand the reasons people might do these things, I cannot support those behaviours and whilst I don’t know what “most vegans” think I imagine many would also not support such behaviours. I find it odd that I am labelled extreme just for describing dead animal body parts as dead animal body parts 😂

I find it odd that I am labelled extreme just for describing dead animal body parts as dead animal body parts

I agree, that is odd.

This will be met with derision by many, whether people respond to it by posting or not, but I think the human race is feeling increasingly guilty, embarrassed and ashamed at what we are doing and what we have become.

I think most people, if they are honest with themselves, know that it is wrong to treat animals in the way that so many of them are treated. And I include all animals in that: zoo animals, animals used by the authorities, animals that have lost land to human populations, animals we test drugs on, circus animals, pets, animals that can't survive without human help, animals who get caught in the crossfire of our lives and indeed farm and farmed animals.

Most people realised sometime ago that the circus is no place for animals but that's in part because they are faced with a live animal. And who could see Black Fish and come away thinking it is ok to keep orcas in captivity? You're seeing a live animal so it harder to disassociate. But a piece of meat is just that to many. It's food, it's not a dead animal and apparently it's vulgar to even describe it as such.
Also, a point made upthread about kids wanting sausages, no one said sausages don't taste good, so of course the kids want them especially if others are having them.

And I think this feeling of guilt and shame is why there is such a backlash against vegans. I certainly always felt ashamed and believed it was wrong when I was in a meat eating phase (nothing to do with health reasons btw) and always thought I'll go back to be a veggie/vegan soon.
I also think our collective shame is one of the reasons why many of us are struggling with modern life, why there is so much depression about.

I get that you don't absolve yourself of the guilt by going vegan. Many vegans do any number of other things that have a negative affect on the planet and its inhabitants. But it is at least something.

I also acknowledge how hard it must be for meat and dairy farmers who are part of a family who have been farming for generations.

I am not preaching or telling anyone what they should or should not eat. I am simply expressing an opinion which no doubt many people will disagree with.

I don't feel at all ashamed about eating meat. That's actually such a take based on Western privilege as well. There are many parts of the world where being able to give your family meat is a huge source of pride. Where nutrition is precarious and there are not supermarkets full of meat substitutes, where people unfortunately do have to be pragmatic about the use of animals for food, agriculture, transport etc because it's that or suffer and starve.

And I think this feeling of guilt and shame is why there is such a backlash against vegans

I think it's more that many of the vegans we are aware of are the extreme ones, rather than our own personal guilt. You're right, @redboxer321 , we are an embarrassment to ourselves, but I don't think that's as powerful a way to get pissed off as finding that someone has glued themselves to the motorway exit you need to use.

Otherwise we'd be just as pissed off by vegetarians. Not that I personally am pissed off with anyone, just speaking societally.

@JudgeAnderson
You're right, I am only talking about people who have the privilege to be able to think about these things.

This will be met with derision by many, whether people respond to it by posting or not, but I think the human race is feeling increasingly guilty, embarrassed and ashamed at what we are doing and what we have become. Tell the Chinese with their mega dairies and 24 storey pig farms this. By the human race I think you mean middle class folk in the UK.

@redboxer321 actually interestingly I did start to feel a bit guilty about eating chicken and other avian species. No idea why. Yet I can happily look at a cow or sheep and think yum. But we all have our individual quirks.

Where are all these extreme vegans? Most of us are just getting on with things the best we can.
I realise that it is a crap daytime TV show and I admittedly was only half watching but I think I'm right in saying that the other day on Jeremy Vine, they had a guest telling us that vegans have mental health problems, she'd ban them, a chef had banned them from his restaurant... and so it goes on.
I realise that she was rent-a-gob and would have said anything she was being paid for but that's irrelevant as it was being aired on national TV.

@ well I can't, can I, because of like most people in the UK where most of Mumsnet is based, I can't speak Chinese. Anyhow, it's up to the Chinese to demand better standards.
But I fully admit, having the luxury of being able to think about where your food comes from is exactly that.

Maybe it's because you see the whole bird or much of it. Or if not the whole bird, a whole leg or whatever. You can see how it was once an animal whereas a steak is just an oblong piece of meat?
I was once at an event where there was a wild boar on a spit. I was eating meat at time. I couldn't even think about eating it or even look at it despite knowing it had probably had a decent life and quick death.

Maybe it's because you see the whole bird or much of it. Or if not the whole bird, a whole leg or whatever. You can see how it was once an animal whereas a steak is just an oblong piece of meat?

I don't think it's that so much - I've seen everything from chickens to sheep to cattle slaughered and butcheries where I grew up also tend to have whole animals hanging up as well as such delights as random pigs' heads. Plus I've been hunting and enjoyed the results.

So I honestly don't know what it is beyond the fact that I find chickens have a certain pathos to them. I'll still eat them though, but nothing mass-produced. I think the intensive, mass production process is particularly hellish on chickens and I want no part of that. I may eat meat but I still value walfare.
You can buy a whole chicken for under a fiver in Asda. That's not right.

@kikisparks maybe it's just your use of language then that appears to make you come across as a little extreme to me, I know other vegans and none of them say dead body parts when talking about meat (like I've previously said, just as they wouldn't say dead plants about their own choice of food)
Not in reply to you but I'll add that I also do not feel ashamed or embarrassed about eating meat, anything but I'd say. I cannot imagine many folk that eat meat are ashamed to be doing so but in my line of work that's probably understandable. I'd go so far as to say that's rather a silly comment and much like me coming out with something equally silly like, all the preaching vegans are just angry because they're not eating meat and feel their missing out secretly. It's just simply not true. People just choose to eat what they want. I don't pressure anyone to eat meat and don't expect any pressure to turn vegetarian in return.

@backbritishfarming
Why do you always have to insult people?
And saying, "People just choose to eat what they want" is far too simplistic. People eat the food they do based on many factors. It's not always something they want.
You say you don't expect anyone to pressure you into not eating meat. Where is anyone doing that? If you feel you are being pressured, maybe you do feel some guilt after all.
We've already had one meat-eater say they feel some guilt about chicken and one ex meat eater so maybe people feel more guilty/ashamed than you realise. Although as you admit, it wouldn't be beneficial to you to see that.

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Well I wouldn’t say it to my non vegan friends in person either but again it is not extreme to say body parts are body parts.

@redboxer321 I had enough of this shit the other day. I am entitled to say I don't feel ashamed. I stand by that. How have I insulted you? I can imagine the very vast majority on here posting choose what they eat. You don't read my posts properly- I didn't say anyone was pressuring me to be vegan, I said I don't expect them to. Please leave me alone from your nonsense.

@backbritishfarming This from the most amiable person you could ever meet in RL. Ok.
Read back over your replies to me, insults galore. You've just said I wrote nonsense and shit. And I don't think when you called a PP extreme you meant it as a compliment.
You didn't quote me in the earlier post no, but I don't think anyone has said anything about shame and embarrassment but me so it was pretty obvious who you were talking about.
I get it. The world is changing. Veganism is a threat to your lifestyle and livelihood. I understand that that is hard.
Anyhow, steer clear of me, I will you but it was you who commented about my post (without naming me) and not the other way round. Let that be an end to it.

So, if some people aren't embarrassed/ashamed/a bit revolted/feel guilty/would rather not think what it is/feel bad/however you want to describe it... why is nose to tail eating a thing?
Why didn't we always eat all of the animal?
I just gave my dog a chicken foot. Westerners don't tend to eat chicken feet but in some cultures they do. I get it's partly cultural but it's also because people don't want to know what they are eating.
Sheep's head and eyes the same.
Any number of other things.
Why is meat packaged as it is? I just had a look at Tesco Finest Diced Beef and the packaging shows a picture of a cow rather than a carcass hung up.
Why is well done steak a thing? Sure people have different tastes but steak, especially fillet steak, is ruined by over cooking it (some chefs refuse to cook it that way) but some people don't want to have blood on their plates because they don't want to acknowledge what it is.

I was shamed into giving up meat. I was confronted by what it was (a wild boar) and then by the news the next morning that I had eaten foie gras. Ironically, the wild boar was probably the most sustainable, environmentally friendly, high welfare meat I could have eaten but I just couldn't do it. I felt shame. I realise not everyone would, in fact most people seemed quite happy to eat it, but I think increasing numbers of people have long felt at least a little bit bad or however you want to describe it about eating meat and that feeling in getting ever stronger.

I agree with you entirely.

@redboxer321 again short answer is that people in the UK are fussy and squeamish - most less affluent parts of the world certainly do eat every part of the animal and actually the most nutritionally rich parts of an animal are the innards.
But this is just one country, or at a push one region of the world (the affluent West). In most parts of the world, people eat the lot and don't shy away from where it comes from, and it has been the same throughout human history. Our current society is the anomoly.

In fact, expanding on this, the utilisation of animals was the key to our survival in the colder northern parts of the world for millenia. We needed the meat, fat, skins and fur of the animals we hunted to keep us alive.
There's a reason why aurochs feature so prominantly in cave art all over Europe.

@5128gap
Thanks. Means a lot.

@JudgeAnderson
Well of course. That's why I mention how things are different in different cultures! And why do you think some people in the UK are fussy and squeamish? I suggest they might not want to be confronted with the fact that they are eating an animal. And yes, that's privilege. Not sure how your next post is relevant?

But some people are thinking about the fact it is an animal and how can we make best use of that animal so noise to tail eating has become a thing in quite recent times I think (might be wrong on that but I'm talking about late 20th and early 21st century here). Also, some people, like you, want higher welfare meat.
Some are still not facing it is a dead animal they are eating, some might genuinely not care, some are not eating meat and some are trying to eat meat better.

I honestly think it's Disney that's done it. Decades of Western anthropomorphism.

Oh sorry, is that not relevant enough?

When all else fails, bring out the passive aggressive question. Nice work @JudgeAnderson.

I honestly think the best thing for this thread is for someone to take it out back and shoot it.