Not to want our children to eat red meat?

[Flymeaway4]

I'm vegetarian, have been for 20 years, partner is not. Since before they were born, I've said I'll let them have chicken, fish etc, but not red meat including pork. Once they're old enough to properly understand that meat was once an animal, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to eat red meat too, or be vege if they like, their choice. Partner thinks I'm ridiculous and said "why can't she have a ham sandwich" at a party yesterday, "what harm will it do". There were plenty of other options there anyway: chicken, cheese and egg sandwiches, quiche, fruit etc.

In case you think it's relevant, my reasoning behind no red meat is that I think cows and pigs are too intelligent, they know exactly what is happening when they arrive at the abattoir and I think that's just too cruel (and lambs are babies). Allowing chicken and fish, until they can make their own informed decision, was my compromise. If it were purely up to me, I'd be happy raising them vege!

So, am I being unreasonable?

Read the thread - I already posted the links. Something else you missed then..

https://www.cancer.net/navigating-cancer-care/prevention-and-healthy-living/food-and-cancer-risk

I didn't phrase it particularly well but what I meant is that I don't think we have the right to breed, keep and kill animals as we do just because it may make some people more healthy.
There was a man who got a pig heart some time ago. I don't think the operation was successful in the longterm but for me that is utterly wrong. Breeding animals to help us live longer/with better health, it's just wrong, and your argument for eating meat is the same as that really.
Not eating meat doesn't mean you don't have an impact, of course you do.
I just think at present our wants, needs, desires, lifestyle take precedence over every other single being on this planet and that is wrong.
Btw, it's not for me but if you take a fishing line and catch one fish and eat it, I've much less of a problem with that. And maybe I should do that for doggo. Although I still can't understand how her food is not waste food in the main at least.

Literally every dietician's assocation worldwide has said vegan and veggie diets can be perfectly healthy and balanced. Not if you are eating fake meat. But then may meat eaters only eat processed ham or burgers too.

There's a big difference between an older child at a party picking their own food (which, incidentally, we'd agreed would be fine, but we haven't reached that age yet and that wasn't the scenario in my post) and a dad, who had previously agreed to this, wanting to pick a ham sandwich for her, going against our prior agreement.

I think I walked into this arrangement as a form of compromise, but in hindsight I completely agree it could be confusing for them. I think this thread had definitely made me rethink the chicken though! I won't be buying anymore of it for them and if he wants them to eat it, it'll be free range only and he can cook it.

I still maintain my stance on the ham sandwich though. No good can come from it, either for the pig or the one eating it!

going against our prior agreement

Think this is key really. If you agreed on it and now he is backing out then that’s the issue. If he has changed his mind then he needs to discuss it with you and put his points across and if you both see fit, come up with a new agreement. But if you agreed and he is going back on that on a whim that’s not okay. Does he particularly want them to have meat or is it a laziness thing?

This will be among other things you may differ on during your children’s life time op. They are very young at the moment.

In my experience I hold the line on stuff that means the most to me, compromise on other issues and obviously on others I may agree even if I am not entirely convinced. It’s the same for my dh. We are equal.

Only you can decide where your red lines are, but it’s important to have them respected. That is fundamental- that you retain your power, values and voice. Your opinion matters. You don’t have to water down your values to fit in with him.

Most meat eaters tend to worry about protein and iron. Oddly beef etc is most likely to damage the heart and cause heart disease where as nuts are an excellent source of protein, and will protect the heart. Iron is abundant in a great number of vegetarian foods. Most concerns are based on misconceptions and old wives tales not science and nutritional fact. He may just need reassurance that care will be taken.

https://www.thespruceeats.com/nut-nutritional-comparison-chart-1328752

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/iron-rich-plant-foods

We have evolved as omnivores, which includes meat. We have not evolved to eat highly processed foods. That is what is doing the damage.
I'd probably agree that things like feedlot beef stuffed full of maize isn't an ideal nutritional profile but organic, grass fed beef is a nutritionally dense and easily digested source of nutrition.

Some vegans of course do eat a whole food diet but most of the processed vegan food, especially the substitute type stuff, is hideously unhealthly, highly processed fake food.

“It’s not going to end up Lab grown”

ahh brilliant, an authority on the future of food production has entered 🤣the mn chat.

I don’t actually like any of the fake meat ranges, but they do at least spare the animal and the cruelty element and are usually lower in fat.
For those transitioning from meat to a vegetarian diet it’s very helpful to have the plant based look a likes, as they can then gain confidence to cook with lotus flower or fresh beetroot etc. It can be gradual.

UPF is terrible for everyone agreed and should be banned.

So are lotus flowers grown in the UK or do they have to be brought in from elsewhere?

The ones I buy are from here. Not sure if they all are?! You can use British foods too 😂

I certainly can. Lamb and beef spring to mind.

No thanks I will take a hard pass on rotting carcass thanks 💪🏻

Dismembered animals are hung to decompose between 10-30 days before being distributed to supermarkets or hung in the butchers for at least 21 days. The rotting of the flesh makes it more edible. God only knows how much bacteria is formed in that time.

If the bacteria was pathogenic and not killed by cooking you'd know all about it after eating it. If, after consumption, you remain well, you can safely assume that it didn't cause you any issues.

What you're saying isn't based in science or nutritional fact either, though, @GCalltheway

The Daily Mail’s headline ‘Red meat IS bad for you’ is not necessarily accurate, as the study shows that eating more red meat is associated with health problems, but could not establish a direct cause and effect

from

https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/behind-the-headlines/meat-and-heart-disease

I agree with you that meat production methods are often cruel, but you can't really argue that you know better than the British Heart Foundation re Oddly beef etc is most likely to damage the heart and cause heart disease

Or can you? How come you know better?

If anything I'd just raise them however you guys eat at home normally.
Let them choose for themselves.
If they want to eat meat let them.
If not also great.

If you want to educate them on meat, show them a video of where it comes from and an abortoir and then a butchers. Just so they know the background.

Tbh i reckon most people not just kids would find it pretty difficult to eat meat if they were more aware of the process of how it's arrived at their 'plate'.
Its an interesting one.
I wouldn't control what choices the kids make, but I would try to educate them. Just in a non biased way. Like this is how bacon is made. This is where eggs come from.
This is what happens to the male baby cows ect.

And these things are cancer causing or lead to blocked arteries and heart problems.

VS not eating meat and being more conscious about eating foods togeting to get full amino acids, iron, b12 ect.

Its just really that you should educate them. If you're feeding them that's something that's bad for their health, that's not ideal parenting. Irrespective of if its meat or dairy free margerine.

Good luck.

I think its quite a lot more complicated than we evolved to be omnivores.

I think the quantities of what we eat, and how it's produced and where its from is a huge issue.

Going fishing for your own food vs supporting trawling by buying fish caught that method now is a huge difference.

I think its quite a lot more complicated than we evolved to be omnivores

There are other issues, which may add complications, but this basic fact is very simple and it is true. Biologically, physiologically, anatomically, evolutionarily, we are omnivores, and can live comfortably on a huge variety of foods. The layout of our digestive system, including the structure of our teeth, shows that we are evolved to digest meat. Meat has the most bioavailable sources of many essential nutrients, whether we agree with it morally/ethically or not.

*I think its quite a lot more complicated than we evolved to be omnivores.

I think the quantities of what we eat, and how it's produced and where its from is a huge issue.*

I do mostly agree. However where I think it is no longer as simple is the amount of ultra processed food that is now consumed, and it is this rather than a trip to the supermarket fish counter or butchery that is the issue.
I genuinely think that demonising any unprocessed food source given the sheer volume of UPFs for sale and the huge role they play in most western diets, is a huge error that will be paid for with our health and the burden on the NHS and other health systems globally.

If you're vegetarian then surely you ought to raise your children the same way? I find it strange you'd feed them chicken?!

I think the quantities of what we eat, and how it's produced and where its from is a huge issue.

Going fishing for your own food vs supporting trawling by buying fish caught that method now is a huge difference.
Absolutely. And there is no easy solution. I have some friends who are probably the most ecologically minded and nearest to self sufficient people I know. They live on a small holding with a private water supply, generate their own electricity from solar panels and wind turbines and put the excess into the national grid. They have their own chickens, pigs and sheep which are kept in very high welfare conditions, grow lots of their own fruit and veg and go everywhere either by bike or EV which of course they charge from their own electricity. Oh, and they have no children. That's pretty green, healthy and kind. But totally a unrealistic lifestyle for most people, in terms of space, time and cost. They are "doing their bit" and that's great, but it's not the answer to the world's problems. We can't all live like that. There are too many of us in not enough space.
The health, animal welfare and environmental issues around what we eat are intertwined in fairly complex ways, but I absolutely agree that from an environmental perspective a lot hangs on not just what we are eating but how it is produced. Intensive farming of anything has a major environmental impact. Of course some things are worse than others, but producing food on an industrial scale is always going to be harmful to the planet, yet it is essential for the human population. Yes, we all can, and should, try to make less bad choices but the problems are global and there isn't a simple solution.

Unless they're old enough to express a preference they should have access to all food types. It's ridiculous to suppose a chicken is oblivious to being killed but a cow is not. All meat processed in this country has the world's highest standards of care. You'd be better off teaching them to eat local and seasonal.

So her partner doesn't count? He's not veggie.