AIBU to be think that most women would be jailed for their abortions as so many of us embellish?

[Upsetaboutabortionbeingacrime]

1 in 3 women in this country obtain abortions at some point in their lives.

I sincerely believe that as abortion is a criminal act in the UK and to obtain one without being open to prosecution, a woman needs two doctors to permit it. because of this many many many women emphasise and maybe even embellish, or lie, to obtain that. Will it really mean you cannot afford your rent / mortgage and you'll be homeless? Probably not, but you just DO NOT want a(nother) baby. And actually a woman should be able to just NOT WANT a(nother) pregnancy or a(nother) child. Yet the woman is forced to say what needs to be said procure an abortion.

Therefore thousands of women every year would be jailed just like this woman has been.

The jailing was NOT because of the late term of the pregnancy, it was because she lied to obtain it and therefore she's in jail.

Lots and lots women have done that. Lots.

@Qazwsxefv I'm not trying to defend the woman in this case.

Thompson argues that to unplug the violinist and he survives then to slit his throat is immoral- is it not the same to slit his throat first to ensure he does not survive being unplugged?

I am pro choice as I am pro the mothers choice on being or not being pregnant at any stage of gestation, women are not incubators. Women have no obligation to keep babies growing inside them they do not want. Pre viability this means I support abortion (which the uk law allows for any reason as it is always more risky to continue the pregnancy) and post viability I would support induction on request. I cannot support the pre-induction foeticide of healthy viable foetuses as I cannot see that humanity of such a foetus is different from the humanity of a preterm infant of the same gestation.

Exactly. Anyone saying an early abortion is less risky than birth for a woman has obviously never done it!

More risky, I think. You get what I am saying. Birth is the most dangerous thing a woman can do.

An abortion will always be a medical procedure. And as such will always need to be signed off.

as it needs to signed off there will always be guidelines. The guidelines allow for a woman to have an abortion for any reason up to a cut off.

The whole ‘you aren’t pro choice if you don’t agree to abortion for any reason at any time’ is counter productive.

Firstly I think it’s wrong. Most choices ar made with guidelines. Very few choices have nothing else to consider at all.

But also most of us that believe the rules, at this time are correct and don’t think abortion at any time for any reason, aren’t that fussed about having the label pro choice. If, whoever, decides these things decides I am not pro choice thats fair enough it’s not a big deal

For some reason the extremists of either end of the debate can’t accept that most people fall in the middle and aren’t desperate to label their opinion.

Why? Is it required reading before forming an opinion?

@OneFrenchEgg of course it isn't compulsory reading.

You and I are allowed to hold thousand of opinions. Some of those will be based on gut instinct and some on informing ourselves about morals, ethics, history, philosophy and opinions from those at all points of the argument.

Reading the law isn't compulsory either, this is what they woman involved in the recent case was originally charged with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_destruction

No it doesn't. B) is B) - grave injury. Not 'I just don't want this pregnancy'. If it was 'I just don't want this baby' it would say something to that effect.

Of course B is one that many women will indicate. My proposition here is that that might not be strictly true for many women who just don't want one.

No it’s not B, it’s A. The overwhelming majority of terminations are carried out on ground A. Read Ground A again carefully this time- after all you’ve posted it enough times! The effect on mental health only has to be worse if the pregnancy were to continue , no mention of grave at all!

Very, very rarely, ground B is used for a termination after 24 weeks on mental health grounds. Probably when the patient already suffers a serious mental health or is already an in patient in a mental hospital.

has sex

gets pregnant

“HOW DARE THIS CHILD BE IN MY BODY”

Vast majority of abortions are not due to SA as per the data.

The jail term was because the woman pled not guilty initially. If she'd pled guilty at the first opportunity she would not have got a jail term for this offence. Our sentencing system is based on admission of guilt more than the actual crime. It seems she was badly advised to do that as there was plenty of evidence that she knew she was over 24 weeks.

It may well be that she could have got a legal abortion under B on mental health grounds but obviously she did not seek that (possibly due to COVID).

Personally I think abortion at any stage should be decriminalised. It should always be a woman's choice. No one is going to choose abortion at 32 weeks lightly. But even then it still needs to be a requirement for medical professionals to be involved to avoid suffering to the foetus. I wouldn't support late term home abortions such as this woman did being legal.

Also I don't think anyone should be in prison unless they are a danger to other people. I don't think this woman should be in prison either. Apparently if only the women who are a danger to others were kept in, and all.others released, there would only be about 4 women in prison in the UK.

Well I don't think that is entirely true @SnackSizeRaisin many female prisoners are a danger to others including children,

Yes, and B covers pretty much any reason. Being forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy could definitely cause serious mental injury.

The reality is when a women asks for a termination within legal limits she gets it.

Abortion isn't a criminal act in the UK? It is legal.

It is free.

The doctors will agree so long as you are under 24 weeks.

I don't really see why anyone would embellish? It's free, easy and accepted here...

Tbh as someone in their 20s if I wanted an abortion I would just tell them that. Doesn't matter if I can't afford it, if my man's left etc.

Only reason they need is that I don't want it and it's legal.

Being pregnant is a reason for an abortion itself under the 1967 abortion act under 24 weeks - at it is more risky medically to be pregnant that not to be - so aborting the pregnancy is always the best thing for the mothers physical health so it is always legal.

Since it’s a medical procedure your going to need at least one doctors to agree to make it happen, the law does require two doctors to agree, but having more than one doctor agree to something isn’t just for abortion - it applies to mental health sections etc.

part of your objection appears to be is that it is framed in the negative - it’s is unlawful to do x unless y - that’s also in other legislation - it’s unlawful to cut into people unless your a surgeon with consent, it’s unlawful to hit someone unless it’s in self defence etc…lots of laws are written this way - probably some clever legal reason why

Oh god, not you again.

Most female prisoners are there for drug offences and related low level crime, shoplifting etc. They have short sentences and are often in and out of jail. Think about it if someone is a risk to society they won't be getting short sentences of a few months or a year or 2. Most have experienced abuse which has led to their problems. They are not a direct risk to society. They really need drug services and mental health services not incarceration.

A baby is currently viable at 24 weeks and you can abort at this stage. Viable is not the same as full term.

I don't know what your agenda is here OP, trying to appear as pro-choice but actually being goady as fuck.

FWIW surely most of the "embellishments" you mention fall into this category:

• (b) that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or

Forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy she does not want is going to cause permanent injury to said woman's mental health, no?

Honestly where is your critical thinking here? 🤔

The judge said that if she had have pleaded guilty, it wouldn't have been a custodial sentence.

And it was still in entirely at his discretion, whether to impose one.

Strictly speaking it is, unless done within the structure of the 1967 Act. In reality the UK has one of the most liberal regimes in the world - effectively on demand and free up to 24 weeks and later in exceptional circumstances.

For those saying abortion is effectively on demand in this country, that's not the case. When I was younger, a friend of mine was refused an abortion because the GP considered they had left it too late and should have done it earlier (she was below 24 weeks). Friend ended up having to go private and have an even later stage abortion.

UK abortion laws need reforming - even the 1967 act given the way that medical science has moved on, let alone relying on an act from 1861 - and hopefully this incident will be a catalyst for that.

However in this instance the woman deliberately lied to obtain a treatment that was not suited to her late stage of pregnancy - and she wasn't a naïve teenager who may not have realised she was pregnant, but a mature woman with earlier pregnancies who was too embarrassed to tell her partner she'd slept with someone else while she was apart from partner.
Whether or not the length of sentence is appropriate, I'm not sure - but if access to abortion pills on line is to continue, there do need to be some checks and balances, and consequences for deliberately circumventing them.