AIBU to be think that most women would be jailed for their abortions as so many of us embellish?

[Upsetaboutabortionbeingacrime]

1 in 3 women in this country obtain abortions at some point in their lives.

I sincerely believe that as abortion is a criminal act in the UK and to obtain one without being open to prosecution, a woman needs two doctors to permit it. because of this many many many women emphasise and maybe even embellish, or lie, to obtain that. Will it really mean you cannot afford your rent / mortgage and you'll be homeless? Probably not, but you just DO NOT want a(nother) baby. And actually a woman should be able to just NOT WANT a(nother) pregnancy or a(nother) child. Yet the woman is forced to say what needs to be said procure an abortion.

Therefore thousands of women every year would be jailed just like this woman has been.

The jailing was NOT because of the late term of the pregnancy, it was because she lied to obtain it and therefore she's in jail.

Lots and lots women have done that. Lots.

No, she had already crossed the 24 week mark before lockdown. She was therefore able to legally get one at the right time.

Agreed that women face the brunt of economic downturns,

Its not an economic downturn though, it’s a government policy that restricts financial support to women (because it’s by far women who carry the financial burden of children), if they have more than two pregnancies.

You don't need to lie to have an abortion.

Not wanting a baby is enough

There are now synthetic wombs in which a lamb can be grown and developed from 12 weeks gestation. There are scientific advances with humans, too.

So, very soon it is possible that at 12 weeks, 10 weeks, 5 weeks, a human embryo / foetus could 'survive' without a human womb.

That poses a conundrum for people who say women should have the right until the foetus can survive outside her body. We could be in a position where women are NEVER able to terminate.

It's actually not. There are four conditions under which a woman can be granted a termination.

I'll paste again:

Abortion Law Criteria
The Abortion Act 1967 states that an abortion is legal if it is performed by a registered medical practitioner (a doctor), and that it is authorised by two doctors, acting in good faith, on one (or more) of the following grounds (with each needing to agree that at least one and the same ground is met):

• (a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
• (b) that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
• (c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or
• (d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

Using OP's logic Boris Becker was jailed for lying.

There's a difference between exaggerating about the impact a baby would have on your MH and pretending you're less than 12 weeks pregnant to get an abortion when you're actually nearly at full-term.

I feel like I'm in the minority but aborting a baby so late is disgusting. That baby is likely to have survived being born at that late stage. I am not anti abortion in any way if its before the viable stage but I'm sick of women being put on a pedestal on this site, it's like they can do no wrong. Yes her body her choice but she had months to make that choice.

And b covers anyone who doesn’t want their baby, as long as they meet the other legal limits.

Sometimes after

I agree that abortion should be legal and freely accessed.

How has a prison sentence helped in any way at all? In the sentencing the judge talked about how remorseful the woman was. I cannot imagine what would make a woman abort a viable baby and what would be going through her mind. It must be extremely traumatic to give birth to a dead baby that could have lived. She had to live with the pain of that decision for the rest of her life. A prison sentence isn’t going to do anything other than destroy this woman more.

This case has really made me consider whether I am pro-choice and I have struggled to come to terms with my views myself.

I ultimately believe that whilst that baby is inside the mother it is her body and therefore her choice. If this mother had been able to be open and honest about what she wanted to do who knows how things might have been different.

Also, what I would personally do in the same situation is irrelevant.

I think some people are not fully aware of abortion rights in the UK. I hope this BPAS is a credible source. Here's a link, and I will paste.

https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/abortion-law/

1. What does the Abortion Act do?The 1967 Abortion Act renders lawful activities that would otherwise constitute a crime under the Offences Against the Person Act (OAPA) 1861. The OAPA makes it a crime for a woman to 'procure a miscarriage', or for another person to help her do so. The Abortion Act 1967 (as amended by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990) states that an abortion is legal if it is performed by a registered medical practitioner (a doctor), and that it is authorised by two doctors, acting in good faith, on one (or more) of the following grounds (with each needing to agree that at least one and the same ground is met): (a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or (b) that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or (c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or (d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped. The 1967 Act does not apply to Northern Ireland, where the abortion law remains governed by the Bourne Decision, discussed below.
2. What does it mean for doctors to 'act in good faith'?To show that an opinion has been formed 'in good faith' does not mean that authorising an abortion must be the 'right' course of action, simply that the doctor has not been dishonest or negligent in forming that opinion. What makes an abortion lawful is the doctor's opinion that there are lawful grounds for the procedure, rather than the fact that those grounds exist. So, for example, if two doctors believe in good faith that abortion carries less risk to a woman's physical or mental health than carrying the pregnancy to term, this makes the abortion legal – even if, in the eventuality, it would have been safer to carry the pregnancy to term (for example, if the abortion resulted in death or injury). Similarly, if a woman states that she cannot afford to continue the pregnancy, the doctor is not obliged to check that she really is lacking in funds.
3. What does 'risk to health' mean?These circumstances under which doctors can authorise an abortion include risk to a woman's physical or mental health, which, under Section 1(1)(a), is defined relative to the risk of giving birth. Prior to 1967, it was already established in law, by the 1938 Bourne decision, that an abortion was legal if the doctor was 'of the opinion on reasonable grounds and with adequate knowledge of the probable consequences' that continuing the pregnancy would 'make the woman a physical or mental wreck'. This was significant because it confirmed that the grounds for a lawful abortion extended not merely to saving the woman from death but also to considering her mental and physical wellbeing. The 1967 Abortion Act took the concept of wellbeing further, by indicating that an abortion was lawful if 'the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman' (emphasis added). In 2012, medical evidence is clear that, purely on a physical level, abortion carries less risk of maternal mortality and morbidity than does childbirth. In terms of mental health impacts, authoritative reviews of the evidence in the USA and Britain are clear that aborting an unwanted pregnancy has no adverse psychological sequelae, compared to carrying that pregnancy to term. (1) Thus it could be argued that any abortion carried out under Section 1(1)(a) (the ground on which 98 per cent of abortions are carried out) would always be lawful, provided the authorising doctors were acting on the basis of a good faith reliance on this medical evidence base.
4. Is it legal to terminate a pregnancy because of a woman's social or financial circumstances?Yes. This is provided by Section 1 (2) of the Abortion Act, which states that doctors may take account of the pregnant woman's actual or reasonably foreseeable environment when making a decision about the impact of the continuance of a pregnancy on a woman's health. Here again, the law bestows upon doctors a gatekeeping role in terms of deciding who may have an abortion, but within that role provides for a great deal of latitude in making their decision. The law does not state that doctors 'must' take account of a woman's environment, but that they 'may' do so. There is an implicit recognition that it is not always possible to separate the mental or physical health effects of abortion from a woman's wider social circumstances – such as her income, her housing situation, her support network. Doctors may take all this into account in determining whether to authorise an abortion. Thus, it would be entirely reasonable for a doctor to decide that a woman who presents for an abortion saying that she cannot afford to continue the pregnancy can lawfully be provided with the abortion, as to refuse her might have relatively negative consequences for her health.
5. Is abortion for reason of fetal sex illegal under the Abortion Act?No. The law is silent on the matter. Reason of fetal sex is not a specified ground for abortion within the Abortion Act, but nor is it specifically prohibited. Other reasons for abortion that are widely accepted as 'good' reasons – for example, if the woman has been raped – are not specified either. The Abortion Act gives doctors the power to make decisions about whether a woman can end a pregnancy on the basis of specific grounds. It does not prevent a doctor approving an abortion where a woman has mentioned the sex of the fetus, but one of the grounds of the Act would have to be met. There will be rare circumstances where fetal sex may be a factor in a woman's decision making - each case will be individual and doctors are asked to decide in 'good faith' whether that individual woman meets the criteria set out in the Act.
6. Does the fact that there is such broad discretion for authorising abortions mean that British women have access to 'abortion on demand'?No. The construction of the law around a doctor's good faith opinion was motivated firstly by a concern about the health consequences of unwanted pregnancy and backstreet abortion for women and their families, and secondly by an unwillingness to legislate for abortion on demand. Women in Britain cannot obtain abortions 'just because' they want them – doctors have to agree that they are warranted. That there is no right to abortion on demand is illustrated in three ways. First, the law makes very clear that the decision rests with two doctors, according to their own judgement about the impact of abortion versus childbirth on the woman's physical or mental health. Second, on the question of the woman's social circumstances, the law does not state that doctors 'must' take account of a woman's environment, but that they 'may' do so. This means that doctors are not compelled to take these broader factors into account. Third, the Abortion Act allows doctors the right to conscientious objection to authorising or performing abortions, except where this is necessary to save the woman's life or to prevent grave, permanent injury to her health. This means that women do not have the right to demand that any doctor performs an abortion for her.
7. Do doctors have to examine the woman in person before signing the HSA1 form?The Abortion Act legislates that two doctors must decide 'in good faith', that a woman meets the legal requirements for an abortion. It also requires the government to make further provision regarding the certification of such decisions. These regulations regarding certification currently provide that two doctors must specify on what ground/s an abortion can be provided (with both needing to agree that at least one and the same ground is met) along with providing other prescribed information. Current regulations stipulate that they can do so through filling in a particular official document – the HSA1 form; or by providing the same information on signed certificates. It was established in the 1981 case Royal College of Nursing of the United Kingdom v. Department of Health and Social Security that abortion should be considered as a procedure that would be carried out by a medical team comprising doctors, nurses, midwives, and other qualified staff, acting in accordance with good medical practice; and that while a doctor should accept responsibility for 'all stages of the treatment for the termination of pregnancy', he/she did not personally have to conduct every stage of the procedure. Therefore it has, for many years, been considered good practice for doctors to rely on the information gathered by other members of their team in determining whether a woman meets the criteria for an abortion, just as it is considered good practice for nurses to administer medications. There is no legal requirement for the doctor personally to examine the woman. That is why there is the option, on the HSA1 form, for both doctors to certify that they have not seen or examined the woman. This briefing taken from Britain's Abortion Law: What it says, and why, in which legal scholars explain that the attacks on Britain's abortion service in 2012 were based on a misunderstanding of the law, both in spirit and in practice. It can be downloaded here. The Care of Women Requesting Induced Abortion - full guideline. Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, November 2011. Induced Abortion and Mental Health: A systematic review of the evidence. Academy of Medical Royal Colleges (AoMRC), December 2011.

@Upsetaboutabortionbeingacrime

Why do you keep posting the law if you’re not going to read it?

a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week

Genuinely don’t think you are in the minority. I think the majority of people who are ‘pro choice’ and want abortion available also think there should be limits.

Because it doesn't fit with her "facts"

Yes i understand what you mean op.

Most 'social' abortions are made legal by doctors signing off that continuing with the pregnancy would case harm to the mother's mental health. Its a bit of a stretch in many cases I'm sure. More like a tick box exercise.

We don't actually have abortion available on demand when you look more deeply at the legal side of it

No it doesn't. B) is B) - grave injury. Not 'I just don't want this pregnancy'. If it was 'I just don't want this baby' it would say something to that effect.

Of course B is one that many women will indicate. My proposition here is that that might not be strictly true for many women who just don't want one.

I thought scans were standard procedure. No matter what stage the pregnancy is at. A friend of mine had a horrendous experience because they forgot to turn the sound down or off and she heard the heartbeat at 8 weeks.

I think the woman in question obtained the abortion pills on 11 May, and aborted the baby around 34 weeks. That would have meant she was 24 weeks on 2nd March, which would have been the legal limit to abort the baby - at that point the country was not in lockdown.

She lied and knew she was killing a viable baby. I’ve always been a supporter of the right to abortion, but not at 34 weeks. The thought is horrific.

Yes if she'd pled guilty earlier. She didnt

Exactly - and she knew she was pregnant in January and didn't do anything about it. She had weeks to see a doctor or clinic and get a safe and legal abortion.

The thing is that many people abort what would further down the line become a viable baby for no other reason than they don’t want another child.

The law needs to be clear on when a foetus becomes a person, which, in my understanding, is at the point of birth.

Yes it is.

Careying and giving birth to a child risks grave injury to someone’s mental health. Can you read where it says ‘physical or mental health’?

If the point you're making here is that abortion should be entirely legalised and treated as a healthcare matter then I agree with you.

I also do not think that jailing this woman was in the public interest. Suspended sentence plus mandatory counselling would have been far more appropriate.

agree

It is generally considered in the UK that forced birthing is not good for a woman's mental health. So we allow terminations of pregnancy fairly freely in early pregnancy.

In late term pregnancies, the baby has to be birthed. The options then are do you birth the baby and see if it survives. Or do you kill it first.

I've read the law.

THIS JUDGMENT was not about the stage of pregnancy, it was the way in which the abortion was obtained. Sure, she had to lie because it was 24 weeks +, but it is that she lied, not why she lied.

Beyond this woman, let me spell out my concerns.

As a woman, I cannot legally have a termination unless one of those four conditions are met. I have been pregnant, and had several children. However if during any of those pregnancies, at any time if I wanted to end the pregnancy I COULD NOT unless one of those four conditions were met. In my case they would not have been. If I said 'oh yes, I think my mental health would suffer' I could get one. But I would have lied, and therefore I could be prosecuted.

I'm saying AIBU to think that actually many women don't satisfy those four criteria, but they have terminations anyway even BEFORE 24 weeks. the law provides for those prosecution.

If you read something else into the law, then please elucidate as I'd be very glad to hear it.