What an idiot (me)

[BadMotorhomeParent]

I sold my motorhome to some passers-by (it was old, and not used much). I was knocked down on the price I asked.
They said they were "touring" to buy up unwanted motorhomes to take back (to Ireland) for Ukrainians who had nowhere to live/sleep.
They were in a big shiny brand new pick-up, and at first I was dealing with one Irish giant, then one-by-one, three more got out (all brothers). And the 7y.o. son of one of them. Sweet.

Without tax, they put trade plates on and said that they would have a lorry come to transport it, but did drive it away off down the road; it had started well as new battery in April. But I had o real knowledge of it's mechanical soundness (it would overheat if driven stop-start in heat I remember.)
Bank transfer/FP done while they were there.

Two hours later I get a call (fortunately one of them had taken my number), and apparently it had blown up on the "motorway" (I think, the A1), so the discussion was what did I want to do, but also they also spoke to someone who said it was a heap of shit, but it could go to a "yard"/for spares/be fixed (new engine, gearbox etc etc) at great cost.

They (I was not actually sure which brother I was speaking to; they all sounded like one another....) in the end, said - unless I misunderstood - that they would send it for scrap/spares to a nearby yard (with "a man") and I would send their money back - although not the full amount, "for my trouble". (Also had given me 10% in cash - which I didn't know what to do with....)

When I tried to send the agreed amount, the Bank held it up and I had to speak to Fraud - who said, 1) Buyer Beware - so I was not obliged to given them ANY of the money back (!!!!), 2) The motorhome is probably quite all right, and they are looking to get even more of a bargain.....
They also asked me if I felt intimidated or threatened, or was worried that there would be comeback if I stood my ground..... And I said I was only worried about (in my imagination) what would happen if I didn't.

Anyway the Bank lifted the fraud restriction (by now I had had three messages....) and I decided best to just send all the money back.

And I did. And got a call from one of the brothers (NOT the one who said I didn't need to give it all back) and he didn't even mention the fact I had sent everything to them, so now no motorhome (a mixed blessing, possibly?) and none of the money.... I asked him where "he" was (I think they had split up in various directions, and the one I was speaking to was not the one who had been in the motorhome), and he was on the way to Scotland, but the motorhome broke down in Yorkshire. I also struggled with the accents (proper proper Irish, which I do like), so didn't even really push it, trying to find out what and where. I know I am a fool.

Does anyone think I have been suckered? (I do. And the Fraud guy at the Bank thought I was - and that was before I returned the money.)

There is waaaay more backstory to this but I don't want to ramble, and have someone tell me it's too long, or too complicated, or simply not interesting enough to read.

Yes. How could you not understand that when the bank employee told you that you were being defrauded?

He didn't actually say that I was though. I had to call the Fraud number because the bank held the payment I was trying to make.
And maybe it wasn't actually fraud until they didn't return (or do so now I have asked) my motorhome.... So all anyone could do was presume that it was, or was going to be.
But, one thing - if this is a well-known scam, then had he told me so, I would have thought more than twice about paying the money back to them.
He could only advise me not to - and then to face the consequences.

Well, as a PP said, you could get a bunch of parking tickets and speeding fines if it is still registered to you. Or a fine from the DVLA for not notifying them. Or (unlikely) the scammers could use it in a crime...

Not signing it could work in your favour though.

I would call the police again and tell them that the scammers took the log book before you could sign it or giving you the seller's part and they did not give you their details, and that you have asked for them to return the motorhome as you have refunded them but they are ignoring you, and you believe there was nothing wrong with the motorhome and they obained the refund by deception as they won't return the faulty vehicle nor give you the certificate of destruction, as they are claiming it has been scrapped. And all the stuff about all scams are the "victim's fault" by their logic... I might drop in that you are concerned they could use it for a crime as the DVLA hasn't been notified because they took the V5 and you don't know who they are to do it yourself.

The problem you have is that you have no proof a crime has been committed but if they are refusing to return the vehicle or tell you who has it, that could be enough. Worth a go. Although they may claim that they have paid you the scrap value, which is why they only asked for a partial refund.

I don't suppose you can read the trade plates on Ring doorbell footage or something?

Also, have you googled their names plus words like motor, car, trading standards, magistrates court, crown court, convivted etc to see if there are any convictions reported in local media?

If it makes you feel any better, my ex nearly fell for the same scam. He even spent the evening being wined and dined by the scammer, who claimed to be a car collector, at a 5 star hotel. There were massive warning signs, including a dodgy website for his "multi-million pound business" that looked like it was done by a child circa 1995. I only managed to stop ex after googling the man and finding that he had a string of convictions for credit card fraud in hotels, was unemployed and lived with his mum in Blackpool.

Oh my God (funny about living with his mum in Blackpool though) - and yet your ex nearly fell for it. I feel better now.

You are very wise, and I am taking it all on board.

I have just spoken (fwiw) to my Bank/Fraud again - and he was nicer to deal with than the Police, who I simply cannot face trying to speak to again just yet. But the advice you offer is again very valuable. The (Irish!) guy at the Bank said that the only way to prove fraud is to - well, prove it, which means waiting to see if the motorhome ever is returned, or it's location given to me when I ask. He did say I could also get in touch with Action Fraud, and that this may be considered cyber crime, due to the transaction being online and the two different accounts?

I am very worried about not being able to tell DVLA, and not having followed procedure (I don't sell vehicles very often!) so have to get onto that as well as soon as I can, but probably another occasion when I will be reminded how naïve I have been (to put it mildly). But if having been that sloppy gives the case more validity for the Police , that's a "good" thing.

I have googled them but nothing shows up... also despite the several Ring and other cameras around here, nothing has been picked up by any of them. Quelle surprise!

The person from the fraud team has said exactly what I was trying to say and prove with the text messages I suggested, just far more succinctly than me 😂

Don't worry about the DVLA. There is always a delay in notifying them as the documents have to be posted (or there was before you had the option of doing it online). You have plenty of proof that you aren't in possession of the motorhome if an offence is committed.

I would speak to the DVLA in person (don't do it online) to explain the situation and ask for advice about what best to do as you don't have the motorhome in your posession but you have refunded the scammer and want it back, they took the unsigned V5 but you don't have their details, and they are claiming it is being scrapped. You don't want to be held responsible for it as it is out of your control and posession but, equally, you don't just want to transfer ownership to them!

And to further cheer you up...

Ex also fell for the "we are fixing the road nearby and have too much tarmac that will go to waste, would you like us to do your drive?" scam (paid over the odds and they damaged the drive) and the "we were delivering a van of leather sofas but the client cancelled and we have to go to another job and need to get rid of them so we are selling them cheaply" scam (he bought 3 sets of nasty vinyl sofas at leather prices). He also lost £10k in some get rich quick scam, although I had already left him by then. You can see why he is an ex.

@EmpressMoo

I think he tried to succinct, but I kept going on a bit.

I understood what you were telling me though, so that helped when I was talking to them.
As it will when I speak to DVLA on Monday (I hope) - but I'm not sure how much proof I do actually have that both it and the money are gone, although the bank transfers might count....
You are so helpful with the information. I am too far into it to see clearly what to do, even if I knew in the first place! (Obviously, don't fall for such things I guess.)

Your ex sounds as though they fell out of the dopey tree and hit every branch.
Even I will not be suckered more than once!

(Well, there was that time when my garage told me my car was no good to fix (MOT) and it was going for scrap, and it turned up having been bought by the local car wash men - who offered to sell it back to me! So, I do have history, I suppose.)

My ex fell out of the greedy tree and hit every branch, then landed in the tight-fisted bush, which is why he fell for any scam that he thought would make him loads of money or save him loads of money.

I'm not saying that about you! Anyone can fall for a scam. But when it happens time after time...

I nearly fell for a badly spelled email scam from a "friend" needing money in a foreign city because their laptop, phone, passport and cards had been stolen... because I had a friend more of a colleague and an ex-friend now whose written English is quite poor (not from the UK) who travels on business for about 6 months of the year, who is always losing their laptop and phone etc and has had to ask me to lend him money in any emergency he is a CF, and who had actually lost their phone the day I got the email so I got a message saying that the number was no longer in use when I tried to call him 😂

You have plenty of proof for the DVLA if the scammers get a fine - bank transfers, and several calls to your bank fraud team and the police.

Do you have legal cover with your motorhome or household insurance? It might be worth calling them for advice.

Crikey. As good as technology is, there are so many downsides.

And in your case, it could have been quite easily done, I would say. But for different reasons, as you were wanting to help, and your ex was looking for a bargain or to make money.

I have a lot of insurance, and legal advice with most of them. I earlier tried the RAC (which is enhanced), but I think I need to call some time other than the weekend. Another technology fail, as I could hardly hear what she (not a legal advisor I was informed) was saying due to the terrible echo - which was not my phone. Can't help but wonder if they do it semi-deliberately, if a person has been committed enough to not be discouraged by the interminable menu, and equally interminable wait to speak to someone, who you might then not be able to hear clearly, they turn on the distortion!
I am feeling very cynical at the moment.

I can only handle so much being on hold and bad calls and looking a fool in one day. I am going to try the Legal help I have with my house insurance on Monday.

(Also half-worried that a broken down motorhome is going to land here overnight.)

UPDATE - if anyone is interested.

I have exchanged a few text messages with whichever one of them it is - I have ben asking for whatever paperwork is needed (proof of destruction or similar) for DVLA, having been told by them that it had "gone to Ireland for parts".....

I had also advised DVLA myself anyway, my Insurance (and cancelled) and got some sort of advice from RAC Legal assistance.

But had essentially given up. Decided to look it up on gov.uk - to discover it now has an MOT (only having failed on a headlight) from 21/6, and is also taxed to December!

Feeling stupid all over again now.

Ahh OP it happens expensive lesson learnt but honestly next time you have something of high value to sell either sell it to a reputable business or ask for someone else that's a bit more savvy and aware of how scammers work to sell on your behalf.

Hindsight is also a wonderful thing it's a shame at the time you couldn't have pretended your partner was a police officer at the time and tried playing them back at their own games stating you wanted it returned your partner was finishing there shift so would be home to deal with them I bet then they would have soon bloody not said anything more.

I'm unsure whether you could contact the police and stated you've been scammed but then it comes down to he said she said 🤷‍♀️.

Karmas a bitch I'm a firm believer one day they will try and scam the wrong person and regret it.

ANOTHER UPDATE - The motorhome was sold by them (Irish) through fb marketplace. No issues, nicely driveable and the people who bought it think they have got a bargain! (it was about 15 miles from me.)

I got a call today from the new owner (my details were on some paperwork still with the m/home), and proof and information by email.

Mystery mostly solved, and absolute proof that I was had for a fool.