What an idiot (me)

[BadMotorhomeParent]

I sold my motorhome to some passers-by (it was old, and not used much). I was knocked down on the price I asked.
They said they were "touring" to buy up unwanted motorhomes to take back (to Ireland) for Ukrainians who had nowhere to live/sleep.
They were in a big shiny brand new pick-up, and at first I was dealing with one Irish giant, then one-by-one, three more got out (all brothers). And the 7y.o. son of one of them. Sweet.

Without tax, they put trade plates on and said that they would have a lorry come to transport it, but did drive it away off down the road; it had started well as new battery in April. But I had o real knowledge of it's mechanical soundness (it would overheat if driven stop-start in heat I remember.)
Bank transfer/FP done while they were there.

Two hours later I get a call (fortunately one of them had taken my number), and apparently it had blown up on the "motorway" (I think, the A1), so the discussion was what did I want to do, but also they also spoke to someone who said it was a heap of shit, but it could go to a "yard"/for spares/be fixed (new engine, gearbox etc etc) at great cost.

They (I was not actually sure which brother I was speaking to; they all sounded like one another....) in the end, said - unless I misunderstood - that they would send it for scrap/spares to a nearby yard (with "a man") and I would send their money back - although not the full amount, "for my trouble". (Also had given me 10% in cash - which I didn't know what to do with....)

When I tried to send the agreed amount, the Bank held it up and I had to speak to Fraud - who said, 1) Buyer Beware - so I was not obliged to given them ANY of the money back (!!!!), 2) The motorhome is probably quite all right, and they are looking to get even more of a bargain.....
They also asked me if I felt intimidated or threatened, or was worried that there would be comeback if I stood my ground..... And I said I was only worried about (in my imagination) what would happen if I didn't.

Anyway the Bank lifted the fraud restriction (by now I had had three messages....) and I decided best to just send all the money back.

And I did. And got a call from one of the brothers (NOT the one who said I didn't need to give it all back) and he didn't even mention the fact I had sent everything to them, so now no motorhome (a mixed blessing, possibly?) and none of the money.... I asked him where "he" was (I think they had split up in various directions, and the one I was speaking to was not the one who had been in the motorhome), and he was on the way to Scotland, but the motorhome broke down in Yorkshire. I also struggled with the accents (proper proper Irish, which I do like), so didn't even really push it, trying to find out what and where. I know I am a fool.

Does anyone think I have been suckered? (I do. And the Fraud guy at the Bank thought I was - and that was before I returned the money.)

There is waaaay more backstory to this but I don't want to ramble, and have someone tell me it's too long, or too complicated, or simply not interesting enough to read.

Thank you for more replies - even the ones re-emphasising what I already think about myself.
(Been out for a bit - have not abandoned the the thread.)

To say again - they did catch me at a weak moment, when I had been mentally dithering for weeks or longer. The thought of it providing some comfort for refugees probably swayed me more to the thought of it going.
I do NOT mean anything at all about their heritage, just that as I saw it and as they told me, there were Irish and from Ireland (rolling eyes....) - certainly two of them were very handsome, if I can say that.
I am not even sure what I could say to be offensive to the Traveller Community --- and I started my own life in a caravan so flimsy it had to be tied down in strong winds, so feel that I have a bit of a nomadic soul.... Like all people, there are good and bad.
(Some of the Travellers that have pitched up not too far away, have left terrible messes, and I do judge them for that, fwiw.)

I didn't know about the trick of receiving from one account and repaying to a different (with yes, the same surname); so is something to look into as well.

I value other opinions, which is why I am on here and listening to MNers, even though I seemingly ignored the advice from the Bank. But I am sure there would have been many more messages had I not given them the money back - and I would be feeling scared this evening, not relatively calm, although angry - at myself as well as them.

I will be contacting the Police tomorrow, but am braced for more derision from them too.

All the best Op sadly all the police will do is give you a crime number which may help you try and claim some of the money back through your own bank or perhaps any insurance you have etc.
Or at the most prove that you are also an innocent victim in all this should they have scammed someone else of money to pay you in first place so you cannot be held accountable should the first victim try and claim money off you.

You need to also contact the DVLA as others have said report it as stolen although dare I say if it has been a scam and it has gone back to Ireland likely hood is that won't flag up they will have changed the plates etc to sell on and other dodgy stuff to make it possible to do so.

It happens OP sadly even to those of us that say it would never happen to me it just takes one day for a lapse in judgement or fear of something bad happening that we sometimes just end up doing something that normally we wouldn't and would be wise to realise somethings not right.
Live and learn all that you can do now is just ensure that you have a crime number so that nothing can come back on you and make peace that you've lost the money and the motor home.

Have you changed the log book over yet? If not, I would definitely be reporting it as stolen, which in a roundabout way it has been.
It could be classed under the obtaining goods or property by deception law.
I once sold a car which actually did blow up on the new owner as he drove it home.
He phoned me in a right strop, I told him to fuck off and put the phone down. That was the last I heard of it.

Services, not property.

My Dad and all.his brothers and sisters are Irish all have or did have ( as they're all in their 70,sand80,) dark hair and blue eyes ,they were from cork ,skibereen in fact ,not from a travelling back ground I don't know wether it's typical Irish colouring but it's typical, of my Irish family

@FunkyMonks Thank you are lovely and kind. Yes, I don't really expect much from the Police (I am on hold for 101 - since 11:15), Apart from more "What were you thinking??"
I have mentally waved goodbye to the motorhome and the money... I cannot imagine any insurance would be paid to me, but shall try the Legal Helpline - which I have several of, with motorhome, car, household insurance and the RAC and AA, I am (ha ha) well covered.
It was SORNed, and out of MOT, so that probably invalidates it's insurance though.
I wish there were more people like you in the world.

@InTodaysNews Thank you. And there's another stupid thing I did; In all the fluster of emptying the motorhome, I forgot to get the seller part of the log book, and when I mentioned it to the brother who called me - when the money had been received back to them (they were interchangeable, even though only using one number..... ),he said "Oh it's all all right - he's Trade you know...." and other stuff I couldn't follow. I felt only slight !reassured", and now more than ever I see that I was being brushed off.

@x2boys Ha - maybe I'm right. But honestly, I didn't know for sure - just that my grandmother said it, and then the few genuine Irish people I have know (add four to that now) have had that combination of eye and hair colour.
I have not studied genetics that much - but did wonder how I could have green eyes when all parents and grandparents have/had brown. (I know now....)
I certainly have never wanted to infer anything about the Traveller Community - but, who knows who these guys truly are?

Update - after 1.5 hours on hold, I was told by the Police (or whoever the call handler was....) that it was all my own fault, and no Crime has been committed.

Did this even happen?

I can well believe it did happen.

This is a well known scam.

They rely heavily on just the number of them, the fact they're blokes etc to intimidate, they do not actually say or do anything threatening, so if a report is made... nothing to be done, it is not a crime to go around with friends or relations being a bit large and slightly intimidating looking.

They won't actually come back and do anything, that would involve far too much effort, you'd call the police, you'd have reg details and so on for them and it would be risky for not much benefit. They still have a vehicle they've paid under the odds for that they will not be spending out on for insurance/mot/repairs and will flog on for a profit. So they're quids in either way, the 'getting most of our money back' element of it is the icing on the cake as it were.

@WiddlinDiddlin I am so "relieved" that it is a well-know scam. Obviously not to me though, of course.

The Police person I spoke to just kept saying I should have refused to pay the money back and called 999 when they showed up. Also, up to me to go to wherever the they were broken down and bring it back, before repaying the money. I know that makes some sort of sense, but at the time, being shouted at in the broad accent about what I am going to do, believing them to be at the side of the A1 at 5pm on Friday - maybe I was just too unsure... and he had said "a man" could come and take it/them away. I could only see the bullshit after that, and the coulda-woulda-shoulda kicked in.
I feel a bit better knowing that it does happen though.

God yes.... I couldn't make this up, and would not waste time writing about it if it was just an exercise in "creative" writing.

I agree with the police in that it is not clear whether a crime has been committed yet. If they do sell the motor home and lied about it breaking down to obtain a refund, I'm pretty sure that would be a crime.

By their reasoning, surely all victims of scams are at fault? They hand over money at their own free will because they believe the scammers tell them. Nice bit of victim blaming by the police.

Could you ask the scammers to return the motorhome as they have had a refund? If they say it has already been destroyed, ask them for the certificate of destruction because you forgot to take the sellers's part of the log book and you don't want to be fined £1000 for not reporting it as destroyed. Don't be fobbed off if they say they will do it, say you would prefer to do it yourself for peace of mind. If they refuse to do either, you probably have a case with the police.

Did you actually sign the log book? If they forge your signature, that would also be a crime... Did you tell the police about the log book?

I would go back to the police and point out that even if you did it willingly, you are a victim of a crime if the car is sold or not scrapped because they have fraudulently told you that it has had to be scrapped to obtain a refund. They have received that refund by deception.

I would probably also talk to the DVLA if you didn't sort out the log book and explain the situation. They may flag it as stolen in case it is sold on instead of being scrapped. As it would be stolen if they have deceived you and it hasn't been scrapped. Or they might register it as scrapped.

@EmpressMoo A thousand thank yous..... I need to steel myself before trying to speak to the Police again. Yes, I did feel that there was some victim blaming, but I was by then not thinking straight.

I have messed up totally with the log book, and not done any of the things I should - and I did have a nagging feeling that I had forgotten something. I didn't get the chance to tell the Police, and wasn't asked. heck, it was getting close to me being the one who had committed a crime anyway, and now I (inadvertently) probably have!

Maybe I will try messaging them today and see what happens - although I bet, not a lot; but I do feel encouraged to keep taking some kind of action, rather than roll over and play dead!

I can image the bank clerk will be telling his friends the story about the customer who wouldn’t take good advice in work for years.
I know it’s mean but so many people don’t get the opportunity to have someone try to tell them they’re being scammed as it’s happening and they choose to ignore it.

I don't know that they were a "bank clerk" as such, rather a member of the fraud reporting team or department. They personally also do not know that I subsequently made (agreed, against advice) the payment, as he told me they wouldn't see the transaction once the possible fraud marker was lifted. Even so, I bet it's not unheard of and hardly likely to be worth retelling to friends/for years.

I don't like the sound of you at all.

I suspect the scammers will ignore you.

I would text them so you have proof in writing.

Maybe lure them in with a text saying something like:

"I feel bad about keeping £XXX if the motorhome has had to be scrapped. How much did you get for it scrap, so I can deduct that and send the difference?"

If they respond, that proves the number is correct and they have/had the vehicle.

Then tell them:

"On reflection, I would like the vehicle back to use as a extra guest accommodation at home even if it can't be driven so can I have the details of the the yard that has it? Don't worry if it has been destroyed already, I'll get the certificate of destruction from them to send to the DVLA. I'd rather do that myself as I don't want to get fined £1000 for not notifying them! Also, can you return the sellers portion of the V5 to me so I can send it off to the DVLA, please? I'll refund the money once everything is sorted with the DVLA."

It could backfire, they might strip it and replace the engine with a genuinely broken one, they might send you a fake/dodgily acquired certificate of destruction, most likely they will just ignore you. Or it could turn out it isn't a scam and you end up worse off with a blown up motorhome and no cash never in a million years.

I have sent a message, that I don't expect to be answered. Simply saying (nicely I hope) that I think I should bring it back (no reason specified), and could they tell me where it is, so that I can arrange (I have not fully thought that part through, but at least I would not be worrying about them apparently in the heat at the side of the A1, which was why I couldn't figure out what to do for the best when it "blew up" yesterday). I asked at this point for nothing other than location.

I doubt I will hear anything; the next message will also mention the log book.

Your advice is so valuable 😊

Whilst I like to think my advice is valuable, 😂and I am confident that the police are victim blaming you, think carefully about my advice about dealing with the scammers. There is no easy answer to dealing with scammers and if you play with fire, you could get burnt. I would not want to push you into doing something that you might regret. I am just stating what I would do.

I don't think they will reply to your message because they won't want to give the prefectly good motorhome back nor send you the V5 if they are scammers.

The only way to scam scammers is to let them think you are a mug who could be parted with even more money.

I think the only chance you have of getting them to reply is if they think they will get more money out of you. You could try another message telling them that you feel really bad about what happened, which is why you want to collect the vehicle so they don't have to go to the trouble and cost of towing it. Then try the the messages I posted before. Or think of another way to make them think that they can get more money out of you. Once they reply, then sting them with the second message about ony giving them them money once you have the vehicle/certificate of destrustruction/V5. But, as I said in my previous post, there are risks with that strategy.

Actually, if you do send my messages, change the first one to:

"I feel really bad about what happened. I think I should collect the vehicle so you don't have to go to the trouble and cost of towing it. I also feel awful about keeping £XXX if the motorhome has to be scrapped. I'm wondering if maybe I should refund all the money."

That doesn't commit you to refunding them and might get a response. Not that I can imagine scammers would take you to court to get a refund promised in a text.

But maybe ask other people's opinions before you do that!

@EmpressMoo Yes! all points and warnings duly noted.
I shall not rush to send another message, as I am aware that I need to be able to put my money where my mouth is; so am being more cautious today than yesterday, that's for sure.

I am away out for a while, but will consider next action when I return.

You do need to tell the DVLA this has happened asap BTW. Otherwise the next thing you'll have is a speeding ticket or parking fine land on your mat.

BTW, I don't think you've actually said whether you signed the V5, just that you forgot to get the seller part.

If you haven't actually signed it, that is significant.

It is foolish to message the scanners after you paid them off to avoid harassment. All this will achieve is the threats you hoped to avoid in the first place. You will never get your money back from these people.
Don’t let people hear glad you into getting into a scary/ dangerous position.
Time to just let it go.

No I didn't sign it - it just got missed in all the flurry of activity. As I said, I had a nagging feeling I had forgotten something, and asked whichever of them I spoke to but he brushed it off as "...... trade .... etc...."

It was also being driven wherever it was (as I said, I thought it was being transported - although they put trade plates on) whilst not taxed".

I suppose, in a sense, I am goading them (dangerously?) if I message - but, surely it is fair enough to ask for the "heap of shit" motorhome back, now they have been refunded. I have only asked where it is, and told them I would arrange to get it picked up.

No one is goading anyone, @Isthisit22 . I have been very clear that the OP needs to consider the risks. If she can gather proof that she has been scammed, she might at least get the motorhome back if they try to sell it on.

I doubt very much that they will threaten or harass her if she isn't accusing them of a scam or threatening to call the police. They will just ignore her.

I agree there is a tiny possibility that they might harass her if they think they can bully her to cough up the rest of the money without returning the motorhome but they didn't threaten or intimidate her last time. They would be pretty stupid to do that for a small amount of money when they already have the motorhome and most of the money back. Right now they have a 99.9% chance of getting away with it just by ignoring OP as she needs evidence there was nothing wrong with the motorhome and they obtained the refund by deception. If they start harassing or threatening her, there is a chance of getting caught if OP calls the police. It's not worth the risk for them for a small amount of money.

That said, I don't think OP has much chance of getting the money or the motorhome back unless they are stupid enough to incriminate themselves by text or forge her signature on the V5, so she might not want to take the risk. I imagine they will just claim that the "yard" have fixed the issues at great expense unless OP can prove otherwise.

I doubt insurance will cover it. If it does cover scams, it might help if OP has asked them in writing to return the vehicle now they have been refunded.