To say no to social services re: my niece and nephews...

[mrsneate]

To cut a long story short, this is the fourth time in 9 years social services are involved with my brother and his children.

The first time. I drove 200 miles with no notice to collect Brother and his three kids. They lived with me for 8 months. It was hell. Small 3 bed house, 3 children of my own and my ex husband (we were still married) I supported them all financially, got them into schools, he was then given a council property, the children were taken off the register (on it because of their mum)

Fast forward 3 years, a neighbour reported him for various things. They were put back on the register, my brother worked with them, I supported him.

18 months ago, 2am police knock on my door with my eldest nephew. (16 at this point!) him and dad had gotten into a physical fight, could I take him, of course I said yes, the next day social worker came round, when police had entered their property. It was t fit to live in. Stinking dirty, rubbish everywhere.

Me and my SIL (other brothers wife) went round, and blitzed his house, I did 20 loads of washing, 16 dishwasher cycles. The house was spotless.

They asked me to take all 3. I couldn't, I work full time night shifts and was a single parent, my nephew was with me for 10 weeks with no support from
Social services or my brother financial or otherwise, then my nephew was 17 and could decide he wanted to go home. He went home. Case was closed

This week, I randomly had a phone call from a social worker. There had been an anonymous report from someone that he was leaving the youngest alone for long periods (she's 11) and there was no food in the house. He's drinking all the time, the house is a state.

I only ever see my brother these days when he pops to my house with my niece. She always looks clean.

They told me it's looking like it's going down the route of removing the children (11 and 16?) and would I be in a position to take them in, until he decides to cooperate and work with them, told them no, although I'm no longer single, my fiancé works away for months at a time and I still work night shifts, and still only live in a 3 bed house with 2 of my boys (oldest has moved out) she got really arrogant with me after that. I pointed out they need to stop closing the case, keep them on the register.

But guilt is eating me up, there has been a suggestion they go back to their mother. But that will be a disaster. I have text my brother and offered to help him clean the house. Again, but I am
Pissed off with him, and it's annoying me that he keeps having passes because he's a male single parent! He works school hours and earns good money, he's not skint.

What would you do?

It sounds like you simply don’t have enough space to accommodate the kids.

I really feel for the children though. If they were accommodated elsewhere do you and your other brother could have the kids round once a fortnight each to hang out for the day and have dinner?

They will be so much at risk emotionally and educationally but even one strong relationship with a loving stable adult can protect them and give them a good chance. It wouldn’t have to be accommodating them full-time but being in their life, encouraging them at school, taking them on days out or holidays together for enrichment etc etc. Showing them they are loved and part of a family.

Would their father be willing to get treatment for alcohol? Could there be something else going on with him - ADHD , anxiety, depression? That could be ameliorated with medication or therapy?

You don't have to do anything. It's easy for us to say we'd take them when it's not our lives.

Would I take my sisters toddler? Yes. But that's one child and I haven't had the pain you've had before.

Only you know what you can cope with. They won't have a good life in care, but that's not your fault. You're not the shit parent your brother is.

Would it be good if you to take them? Of course. But it's not your responsibility to yank your finances and life for them.

Only you can decide. You have a life and children. Only you can make that decision.

There’s no point listening to people who are heroes only hypothetically. Everyone who’s sure they’d take them has no idea what they’d really do, and there’s nothing stopping them from registering as a foster carer if they think it’s so straightforward and they’re so caring.

If you can’t, you can’t. Only you know that. I’m sorry your brother and his wife have put you in this position.

OP, it sounds like you are doing everything you can to support this kids and are the only positive role model in their lives.

You have 2 very good reasons, that living will you is simply not possible. You don't have the capacity & you work nights - you simply can't leave them overnight.

If you quit your job, then you probably won't have capacity to cover the mortgage.

It's a very tragic, horrible situation but no one you can fix and the fact SS & others are trying to guilt you into impossible alternatives is outrageous. There's no one chasing down your other brother - how typical childcare falls to the female relative.

You can & are supporting these kids as much as you can. You are a NICU nurse. You have given your brother endless support, only to have it under appreciated etc. Go easy on yourself, you are already doing so much for your kids, your niece & nephews, the nicu kids.

For what it's worth, my parents fostered kids when we were younger. They were well cared for and it was a stable home for them at the time. Not all foster care is bad.

I think you should take at least the younger 2 @mrsneate , presumably the one who likes being with his dad, as he's older, could be allowed by SS to stay with his dad?

IDK how likely it is, but if he has a decent bone in his body your brother could send you money towards their upkeep?

The reason I say you should is because the outcomes for kids brought up in care/adopted/fostered are so poor.

It's a suggestion out of the ordinary, but there are two options

1. State boarding schools - the parents pay for the boarding element but not the school element. I wonder if social services could be persuaded to pay the boarding element - it's much cheaper than foster care - if you or someone else in the extended family could have the 11yo in the holidays. There are also some charities which sometimes pay towards the cost of boarding for children like your DN.

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-school/state-boarding-schools

1. Christ's Hospital, Sussex. It has a fairly unique history as a charitable boarding school, and does up to 100% bursaries

https://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/admissions/fees/

You need to force SS into doing their job properly and the only way to do that is to continue saying no. It’s absolutely not feasible for you to take those kids. Your own kids’ mental health would suffer exponentially. (And yours.) As you have said, you have worked incredibly hard to get where you are. You can’t give up your career to mop up your brother’s fecklessness towards his responsibilities. If they become wards of the state you can still visit them AND they will be better cared for. Your bro has given up adulting. If you keep doing it for him, he’ll never step up. (Doubt he will anyway.)

It’s time to walk away. You can’t keep bailing your brother out. He needs to lose the kids so he can either work to get them back on his own, or let them go into care permanently. It’s not fair on anyone. Your kids matter too, don’t stuff up their lives trying to help someone who won’t help themselves.

I would definitely not clean your brothers house. Your not under any obligation to take the kids but if it was my brother I would probably put my foot down and tell him that I was applying to become the guardian for the kids at that they were coming to live with me permanently and I'd seek a court order to make it official. It's the back and forth that is so unfair to you and to the kids. So hard though - I don't envy you at all OP

OP .. you are a wonderful , strong person with much to give.. you have worked hard and achieved despite your obstacles. The fact that you are absolutely agonising over this shows what a wonderful and caring person you are.
you cannot take the children.. you have no space and no ability to care for the younger child with your shift pattern. You have not failed these children… your brother and social services have.
the social worker is absolutely out of line.

I'd take the kids, they're doomed if they stay in their current situation

I feel if you don't want to/can't take them that's your prerogative. Then don't. Say you can't and let SS sort it out

It is not OP's job to be his social worker. His social worker can arrange all this, plus support for transport, getting him organised to get a cleaner, etc.

I don’t think you are obliged to have them live with you. You have your life set up to manage your own children, and you’ve worked hard to provide for them (fellow ICU nurse here!)

Im sure you must be furious with your brother. What a feckless arsehole.

SS I think are desperately trying to get you to take them as they don’t have the placements or funding to sort them out. I find it quite amazing that they suggested that your EXH should take on some of the burden of caring for them!!

I am quite surprised that the older brother isn’t being approached. He lives there already!! Surely, is there not some provision for SS to arrange a cleaner a couple of times a week, and for the daughter to come to you once or twice a week and he sort her out the rest of the time? She’s 11, it’s not like she needs constant care. I’m not saying it’s in anyway acceptable to leave her for long periods but it’s not like she’s a toddler. If she gets fed everyday and her clothes washed and some emotional support from you (and your brothers family, he should be involved too) can everyone not middle through for a few years? The middle brothers 16 he can sort himself out

@mrsneate what a shitty, awful situation you're in, you must feel broken by this. 💐

I'm not putting your career above the needs of the children here, but it's the first thing I'm going to ask, are you in a situation where your work could help you dramatically cut hours, even to 2 daytime shifts a week? And you can keep yourself working, but also use UC & I presume either fostering allowance or SGO money? That would be something I'd look into firstly. I did shift work for many years and I know tons of nurses, so I do appreciate it's not easy, especially with the NHS, however your circumstances are quite unique here.

Secondly, the LA will struggle placing the kids together, but if you were to ask for a loft conversion maybe it'll be doable?
It's unlikely they'll say yes due to funding but the 11 year old will be living with you over 5 years, so financially it'll long term save them hassle?

Nobody wants children they love to enter into the care system, however you can't magic a solution out of your arse without lots of financial help for the LA, without support from your DC & DP.

Does your family in your home want the DC with you? Do you want to be a mum to a traumatised 11 year old girl? It's all a lot to consider.

Fwiw, I've been in your situation (very similarly) more than once, I didn't find the LA offered the support needed to make a viable placement, I asked for a loft conversion, they said no as it was a child who'd leave the care system within 5 years, I offered to rent out my house if the LA could provide us with a 4 bed council house, they said they unlikely would have one any time soon.
I believe that in regards to this DC they took the cheapest option and he had a failed placement and returned to me as an adult to couch surf.
The other situation was an SGO but luckily that DC parent changed her life with support ❤

I hope whatever you decide you know that this choice is incredibly unfair for you to have to make and you need to consider your own needs here also. Taking on children you have no desire to parent, no matter how much you love them, may make you resentful, don't do that to the healthy relationship you have with them. X

I'd want to stop them go in the care system but that's easy for me to say when I haven't been put in that position once, let alone 3 times already. Could the 16 & 19 year olds share a flat together, maybe supported or close enough that you and your other brother can keep an eye, then it's only the 11yo .

If you made it clear from the start you can not/ will not be doing it alone, could you tackle it as a wider family? Your other brother could have her the 3 nights you work and you the other 4? Maybe with tea at the grandparents once a week if there able and visits/ babysitting with the older brother? It would need the whole family to sit down and agree, but would mean no one person (you) is left to carry the load.

I'd say no. You've helped out more than enough. You work nights. And you don't have the space.

You simply aren’t in a position to take them on op. You don’t have space, time or money. Doing so would destroy your own family.

I would feel exactly the same way. You have already sacrificed hugely and it’s not workable this time. I know you will feel guilty whatever we say here and that shows you do care a great deal. However, you have your own children to consider.

To all of those telling OP that you would take the kids -- she already has! It didn't work!

I would stop helping your brother, stop cleaning his house, and just take the kids and let him help himself if he wants, or not if he doesn't want to. You seem more concerned about your brother than the minor children.

Really 🤔

I pointed out they need to stop closing the case, keep them on the register.

children don't stay on child protection plans indefinitely. Once the risks reduce and are sustained they come off. If the risks never reduce then they escalate and might end up in court.

It's easy for people to tell her to take the kids, when they aren't in that situation. OP you've made it clear you cannot take them, that's all there is to it. You have before, it doesn't work. You have tried.

Well, one thing’s for sure… your DB is about to lose a hell of a lot of child allowance and that will mean less to drink with.

Everyone telling OP to take the kids should be required to sign up to send over meals for six and financial contributions to the house she will need to rent to fit them all in.

It's very easy to volunteer someone else's time and labour.

wow there is a lot of people who would take children they have no space, time or money for!

I think you are perfectly reasonable to say no, you have clearly spent a lot of time clearing up your brothers messes. You shouldn't have to sacrifice your life because of him. while you are picking up the pieces nothing is going to change, but do you think he will ever change anyway? Its a very sad situation but you are doing what is best for you, your children and your brothers children by not taking on more than you can handle. at this point i really think you have done all that you can, you have gone above and beyond to try and help, as much a people say they would do this that and the other they are not living in this situation and haven't actually got a clue what they would do if it actually happened to them.