To say no to social services re: my niece and nephews...

[mrsneate]

To cut a long story short, this is the fourth time in 9 years social services are involved with my brother and his children.

The first time. I drove 200 miles with no notice to collect Brother and his three kids. They lived with me for 8 months. It was hell. Small 3 bed house, 3 children of my own and my ex husband (we were still married) I supported them all financially, got them into schools, he was then given a council property, the children were taken off the register (on it because of their mum)

Fast forward 3 years, a neighbour reported him for various things. They were put back on the register, my brother worked with them, I supported him.

18 months ago, 2am police knock on my door with my eldest nephew. (16 at this point!) him and dad had gotten into a physical fight, could I take him, of course I said yes, the next day social worker came round, when police had entered their property. It was t fit to live in. Stinking dirty, rubbish everywhere.

Me and my SIL (other brothers wife) went round, and blitzed his house, I did 20 loads of washing, 16 dishwasher cycles. The house was spotless.

They asked me to take all 3. I couldn't, I work full time night shifts and was a single parent, my nephew was with me for 10 weeks with no support from
Social services or my brother financial or otherwise, then my nephew was 17 and could decide he wanted to go home. He went home. Case was closed

This week, I randomly had a phone call from a social worker. There had been an anonymous report from someone that he was leaving the youngest alone for long periods (she's 11) and there was no food in the house. He's drinking all the time, the house is a state.

I only ever see my brother these days when he pops to my house with my niece. She always looks clean.

They told me it's looking like it's going down the route of removing the children (11 and 16?) and would I be in a position to take them in, until he decides to cooperate and work with them, told them no, although I'm no longer single, my fiancé works away for months at a time and I still work night shifts, and still only live in a 3 bed house with 2 of my boys (oldest has moved out) she got really arrogant with me after that. I pointed out they need to stop closing the case, keep them on the register.

But guilt is eating me up, there has been a suggestion they go back to their mother. But that will be a disaster. I have text my brother and offered to help him clean the house. Again, but I am
Pissed off with him, and it's annoying me that he keeps having passes because he's a male single parent! He works school hours and earns good money, he's not skint.

What would you do?

I would like to second this as my SIL fosters those of a similar age to your nieces and nephews and has helped many finish their education and flourish into adulthood whilst keeping contact with appropriate family members of origin.

You have nothing to reproach yourself for in my view and it may help when you have doubts to think what you taking them may deny them in terms of going to carers who are trained and funded to help.

Firstly I want to say that you need to ignore the negative comments from people who have no right to comment or judge you. As heartbreaking as it must be I feel foster care is the only way forward, the children would then get help, (hopefully), with their mental health problem and you could have contact visits too. Those visits would be planned and less stressful for you all maybe?
Sometimes we just have to say enough is enough and my shoulders aren’t strong enough to carry any more burden.
Secondly I’d like to say thank you for the amazing work you do as a NICU nurse, my grandchildren were born 2 months early and I witnessed the wonderful care and devotion on the ward.
sorry I can’t offer practical advice but just wanted to offer support. Take good care of yourself

Op if you have not got the room for them then you have not got the room, if your ds has sen and needs his own room then the same applies.

TBH from experience the 16 year old will probably be left at home or put in some sort of supported living, flat, hostel type situation. Most likely left home if I am completely honest unless he specifically wants to leave and there is no worry about violence, again only from experience.

So you have two choices, you say you have no room, they go into care and you try and maintain family contact (realistically they will be in long term foster placement till they age out, very few 11 year olds will be adopted)

Or understandably very difficultly you offer to take the 11 year old but only with social services back up and financial support.

Unfortunately for those kids, if you keep being a place they can just swoop in and drop them off this will happen their entire childhood. If you can genuinely not take them long term or even if you do not wish to you would be better letting the care system do its thing.

I hope the meeting with the SW goes well tomorrow.

Their thoughtless comment to you reminded me of one made by an Occupational health person who was assessing our house for DFG and said why did we buy such an unsuitable house! I was gobsmacked and just laughed, but it still annoys me to this day, about 5 years later. Because it was the best house in our price bracket. With a bit of tweaking it will be perfect. I wish she saw the others we viewed.

It's all well and good telling the OP to make a sacrifice for these children but,

a. It's not just her that makes a sacrifice, she has to decide to make it on behalf of her own children

b. It doesn't even mean a happy outcome necessarily. What if she makes the sacrifice for them, finds she can't help them, they end up in a bad way as adults and she's damaged her relationship with her children for nothing?

As a Social Worker, I would take the 11 year old. I think its so sad when children end up in care and feel rejected by their families

This is the kind of emotional blackmail people are complaining about. Im child free by choice. I have a niece who is now 28. DB was/is a decent father but if he hadnt been and i had been asked to take her in the answer would have been no. "rejected by their familes" Parents and grandparents chose to have kids.

Those of us who are aunts or uncles get NO SAY in whether our sibling chooses to procreate or not. But perhaps we should if this is to be expected of us. I would strongly object to being guilt tripped and emotionally blackmailed when mother hood is not the life i have chosen. And for good reason. I just havent got the patience for a kid. And maybe if more people realised that before deciding to have children there wouldnt be situations like this and bullying social workers wouldnt be harassing other family members.

OP, it sounds like you have done a lot for your brother and his children. You are absolutely right not to sacrifice your own children's lives to take on your niece and nephews. As you say, this would only end up with 6 unhappy children. You sound like a lovely sister and auntie and I wish you all the best with a very difficult situation.

My career is what gives my own children the life they have. I would loose a lot of money each month if I stopped working my current job and night shifts, it's not just about my career, my kids had it pretty shit with their own father (who thankfully has sorted his shit out now!) and I spent years struggling to feed and clothe them. I am not taking that away from them. I did my degree as a single mum to 3 children over 5 years, to give my children a better life.

If I take my niece in, my youngest boy would have to share with his older brother (who has adhd and prone to outbursts and meltdowns!) and lose his bedroom,

I would be down about £1000 a month and struggle to pay mortgage and bills. I'd still have to find child care and pay for child care for 12/13 hour day shifts. Or Monday to Friday 8-6 IF I could get a community role. They are few and far between.

I could have stayed on benefits and lived off the state as a single mum, but I didn't want that,

Me and my fiancé have made the decision to not have a child together because of the massive impact it would have on our of our lives and finances, the impact of taking an 11 year old girl with many issues doesn't just affect me.

Alternatively, the older boys stay where they are as they are capable of taking care of themselves if their dad is out all day. And the 11 year old girl gets placed with a caring foster family who have both the time and the space to accommodate her and won't have the personal connection to the dad which means they won't be constantly furious with him.

@mrsneate That meeting tomorrow? Record it

There is no possible way that you can take the children in.

There's no room, no resources and your responsibility lies with your own children.

It's shit, but it's your brothers doing - I'd hope that the possibility of actually losing them might give him the shake up he needs, but I highly doubt it.

The SW is lazy and projecting onto your guilt to make her own job easier, she's just pushing them from one bad situation to what will become another bad situation

Won't you have to allow access for the parents to see these DCs.
It's not that you will have them and be fully supported. It's that you will be left to get on with it also, possibly, arranging diffcult access to the DPs on a regular basis which won't help with their mental health or yours.
I think for the 2 kids fostering long term is the best option.
You really don't have time to look after 2 probably damaged teenagers. For their sake don't take them on.

It’s a huge gamble to take with the well-being of her own children, and frankly a stupid one. She’s listed the glaring issues, and it’s clear that if there’s a possibility of it turning into ‘one big happy family’, it’s an incredibly slight one. It’s all very well sacrificing your own needs, but sacrificing those of your children is another matter entirely.

She isn’t responsible for her brothers children in any way, shape or form, and despite this she’s already gone above and beyond. It’s totally fair for her to say ‘no more’.

anyway, that’s beside the point. She’s said no.

The OP asked what would [I] do. So that’s my answer. I’d do anything to protect my siblings’ kids even if it meant making huge sacrifices, just as i would protect my own kids, and if I didn’t I would regret it forever. However the OP is not me, so may well feel differently. We all have different views and priorities. I guess if she was that certain though she wouldn’t post on mumsnet asking.

Even if your own kids would suffer because of it?

I’d do anything to protect my siblings’ kids even if it meant making huge sacrifices, just as i would protect my own kids

Ok but what if doing the former means you aren't doing the latter?

If protecting your siblings' kids meant you were risking the stability of your own kids?

That's the conflict here, it's not as simple as people are making out.

I think you should also bear in mind all the families who will be indirectly harmed by you quitting your job.

You would be very hard to replace and have a passion for what you do.

My niece is a happy healthy 15 year old. She was cared for by SCBU nurses in her first few weeks of life.

Thank you for what you do.

Yes definitely. I mean, i wouldn’t murder my own kids to save the lives of my nieces and nephews or put them through physical torture or whatever but in terms of my life priorities i personally would consider my nieces and nephews as almost on a par with my own kids.

So if it meant making do, sharing rooms, going without etc, yes i would definitely do this. My sister and brother would do the same for mine too. To us, that’s family.

My sister and brother would do the same for mine too. To us, that’s family.

I bet your sister and brother are great parents too, so you wouldn't be in this situation!

Indeed. All the caring responsibilities automatically get dumped onto the women, without even blinking.

There is absolutely no way OP should be forcing her ADHD child to share, or bring other kids with SEN etc full time into the home. God some of these posters have absolutely no clue.

OP find a sentence you are comfortable with for the meeting with the SW tomorrow, keep repeating it.

People can be certain and still post to vent. It isn’t always an invitation to have their mind changed.

You may think it a reasonable sacrifice to make on behalf of your children, but that isn’t necessarily what your children would think. And that is something that could very easily have lifelong repercussions on all of you, and lead to far more regret than refusing to take them would.

Ok so we could get into silly ground here. If an evil wizard asked me to choose between the literal lives of my kids or nieces and nephews or my own kids, obviously i would choose my own.

If taking in my siblings kids meant mine had to suffer in terms of reduced time from me, possible reduction in academic attainment (because i guess in this scenario i don’t have time to help them with homework), having less space, worse food as we can’t afford nice food any more, worse christmases, more instability… for me personally, i would think those were an acceptable trade for protecting my siblings’ kids. I have a son with special needs and often meeting his needs means his brother goes without and that to me is similar. My younger son will understand when he’s older that we had to prioritise my elder son’s needs at times. Equally in the fictional situation that i take in my sibling’s children, i would feel that my children were learning a far more important lesson around looking after others, making sacrifices for family and so on.

I don't think I would give up work, go on benefits and make my partner's life much harder when I'd already spent nearly a decade helping my (employed!) sibling.

It would be throwing good money after bad and not actually helping anyone long term. If you cover household costs for a substance abuser, you're indirectly enabling the habit.

I'd consider it my duty to stay stable and solvent in that situation for the sake of my own dependents and so I could at least be a reliable relative and role model outside the household for the niece and nephews.

I have a child with severe SEN so it’s not a fair assumption that i don’t have a clue.