AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

The report said she was between 32-34 weeks pregnant and that she had done internet searches on how to induce a miscarriage and how to conceal a pregnancy.

Through putting them on the path to Christ's redemption, perchance?

That’s a bit extreme. Very few people are arguing against abortion here. The debate is access to abortion after 24 weeks and whether the woman’s actions should have been legally acceptable.

Dates are given as to the search history, starting in February. So she must have known she had not miscarried within the 24 week period

So "I thought I'd miscarried" was just another lie?

I suppose she had to say something to explain why she didn't terminate much earlier, but using this never seemed very credible, and doesn't sit well with how remorseful she's alleged to be

Really? People who say things you don't like on mumsnet are worse for the right to early abortion than all the activists, politicians and governments around the world campaigning for and bringing in draconian abortion laws?

Looks like it. Although the persuasion of their argument so far has reached "how would you feel if you were the abortion" 🤣🤣

Yes, yes it is. Which is why I am vehemently in favour of decriminalising abortion.

If I opt out of post-mortem organ donation today and die tomorrow, my organs cannot be used to save someone's life, no matter how hard it is to find a match nor how desperately ill that person is. I don't need the consent of any doctors to opt out of post-mortem organ donation, nor do I need to justify my refusal.

If I fall pregnant tomorrow, I have to get the consent of two doctors to withdraw life support from the unborn baby. I will need to convince those doctors that I have justification for wanting to end the pregnancy.

So the unborn baby gets more protection against me saying "no" to the life-saving use of my body than a born human with kidney failure. Dead-me has my "no" about the use of a kidney respected more than alive-me has about the use of my whole body (because pregnancy doesn't just involve the uterus).

But the charge was based on the fact that she was not legally entitled to take those pills under the Abortion Act 1967 as amended through the temporary coronavirus regulations in March 2020.

The organ donation analogy is flawed. When not donating an organ you are passively letting them die. An abortion however actively kills/harms/damages the fetus' body.

It's not about being anti abortion or pro life. It is that this woman did something very cruel and unnecessary, surely. I do think there must be mh issues, which is why psychiatric evaluation should happen.

No way should she be sent to hail. Too easy sending females to jail in this country. She was obviously desparate. Not so hard on hardened criminals.

But you could argue that a person who had some mental breakdown and stabbed people needed help as well. Should they not go to prison?

I am pro-choice. But she killed the baby. At that gestation, it was a baby. She knew what she was doing according to what I read. I dont see it as different to killing the baby a few weeks later when born. I really don't.

You should move to Alabama. They imprison anyone who facilities an abrtion for up to 99 years, including abortions for rape victims and children. But if they couldn't accept the consequences they shouldn't have had sex, right?

If you genuinely don't see the difference then that's up to you. The majority of women who sadly kill their newborns aren't sent to prison.

Some sick people on here. That child had a 95% chance survival rate.

Also how would the siblings feel? I dont think they are feeling great with their mum being away for 28 months right now.

Setting aside the parlous state of the UK's democracy for a moment, the theory is that the state = the people. We decide, as a collective, who we are. It's us, all of us, who decide collectively, who we are. The people who create the laws, become judges and members of a jury. If you want the laws to change, turn to your friends and neighbours and convince them, around half of whom are women just like you, because they are "the state".

There's no need to use language like "less right to bodily autonomy than a corpse". It's inaccurate, factually incorrect and disrespectful. Pregnancy, and the line between the pregnant woman and the foetus/baby, is (clearly) a unique situation that calls for unique ideas and responses. Nobody is suggesting that women be silenced, treated like dead meat; nobody is suggested that abortion shouldn't be legal. Most people are saying that a line needs to drawn somewhere. You're saying no line should ever be drawn, it's 100% up to the woman. I'm saying no: there are two people involved here, one of whom needs "the state" to advocate for them. Pregnancy and gestation is a situation that rarely calls for an always-applicable, extreme response.

Your analogy to rape is gross. And stupid. It doesn't merit more of a response than that.

You're right about succubus, apologies. Parasite/host is more appropriate.

So this Twitter thread shows that actually she had an abortion of a 32-34 week foetus. It's not a simple case of being a couple of weeks over or slightly mistaken with dates.

I'm very pro choice, but I can understand why this case has gone to court. The judge is correct that he has to apply the law as it stands, although there is the interesting comment that if she had entered a guilty plea earlier, it is likely that she would have escaped a custodial sentence.

Completely agree that its ridiculous to have to get a permission from two doctors to get an abortion.

I guess I think of this case as a murder more than an abortion though, I think for me at that gestation, its a baby.

She broke the law and was rightly convicted.

Yougov polls consistently show that about 50% of people think the abortion limit is about right, 25% think it should be reduced to 12 weeks and less than 10% that it should be increased (with the rest unsure). Mumsnet doesn't represent the views of the majority on this.

So? You can actively maim and even kill an actual person attempting to use your body against your will.

I do hope so, but I suspect not in the same way you do!

Yeah, like the poster who keeps comparing abortion to slavery. Pretty sick.

Survival rate at 24 weeks is 60%, 1 in 7 of these babies will have a severe disability

26 weeks 80% survival rate, 1 in 10 has a severe disability

28 weeks 90% survival rate and severe disability is highly unlikely.

I'm pro choice and believe as late as necessary, early as possible, but I think sharing inflammatory misinformation doesn't help on either side.

I think the guilty plea would have shown she took responsibility for her actions and was not wasting the time of the court @ApiratesaysYarrr