AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

I agree.

I feel really sad about this, if she had FOUR children, she would have known what a fifth child would have meant to her, and their lives. She made a decision, yes later than is legal, but did she know?
In that time, where most peoples MH was on the floor, there was significant uncertainty in the world around us, I think that maybe in this case she needs some understanding.

I can't believe the CPS thought it within the public interest to go for a conviction. Poor woman.

I agree with every word and am so very sorry to read your story.

All you fervent pro-choicers: what you’re really struggling with is the fact that women ARE different from men, women DO provide life support for fetuses/unborn babies, women’s lives ARE impacted more by life creation, women DO end up paying a disproportionate price for it in even the best circumstances, and life IS unfair. It just is. Live long enough and you’ll realise that no matter the quality of your life partner, male or female, this is the case for women who get pregnant (whether or not a living baby ensues). If you want humankind to continue, women will always end up paying a higher price and there’s just no way out of it because we are the only one who can make humans.

We absolutely must do what we can to make things more equitable as between the woman and the man. But the person to bear the brunt of this ISN’T the foetus. It’s the adults in question. This is just an early version of “if your DH is being a dick about childcare/housework/joint accounts just put your kids in nursery and go back to work, then see how he likes it”. No. Who pays the price there (assuming paid childcare isn’t = SAHP)? It’s the child. Who pays the price for a woman choosing not to gestate? The foetus. Just because it’s not able to advocate for itself, doesn’t mean it doesn’t get a say. We go all out to protect babies and toddlers and children up to the age of 18 who can’t advocate for themselves. And yet a foetus at 34 weeks - a perfectly viable unborn baby at that point - is just a succubus at the mercy of its host? No. Abhorrently immoral.

It’s a terrible state of affairs. The issue is the lack of support for women generally, and the low value placed on motherhood. Imo it doesn’t need to be valued: this is what humans do. We procreate. But in a society which only ever increasingly values money, yes we need to value procreation. It’s disgusting but this is where we are.

Our laws have the starting point that all abortions are illegal, then backtrack some exceptions. That is a ridiculously outdated and patriarchal approach to it.

Hear hear.

Abortion should be legal as a starting point, and then exceptions written for when it shouldn't be.

I would just decriminalise it and let the medical regulators sort out what good practice should look like.

My model would look like: on demand, free of charge, as early as possible, and as late as necessary.

• This would protect doctors acting to safeguard a pregnant woman's health at all stages of pregnancy. Imagine a case like Savita but at 30 weeks: decriminalisation means that the doctors don't need to even think about the law to save their patient, as long they act within their training and regulatory guidelines. The law is a blunt instrument and can't replace clinical judgement.
• Women like the one in this case would be given the mental health support that they need, and would be able to seek terminations in hospital instead of resorting to desperate and dangerous DIY measures.

Fortunately the law does.

I think if she’s going down for it then the people who supplied it should go down as well.
covid lockdown was a horrific time and there was probably just as much chance that the hospital would have left her to die of pregnancy complications or the baby to die.
I doubt my youngest would have survived if she’d have been born during covid lockdown.
i don’t think prison is an appropriate way forward.

The miscarriage claim is implausible so I have my doubts.

If thought she miscarried quite early on, hence why she didn’t see any materials she passed, surely she would have noticed her bump growing over the next few months, felt movements, and so on to know she was still pregnant.

If she had a miscarriage later on in the pregnancy, and therefore by the time she found out she was still pregnant and too late, she would have needed medical intervention to help with the miscarriage or at the very least, realised what happened when she was bleeding.

She knew she was pregnant in December and took the pills the following May. She had googled how to terminate a pregnancy after 30 weeks.

Do you not think at least one of the 4 are going to grow up and wonder about their "missing sibling"?

It states she'd previously gave a child for adoption yet chose to do this at such a late stage, also 'the body was never recovered' has she had a previous late abortion ? it's not very clear.

Fortunately the law does.

And hopefully the law changes.

Do you not think at least one of the 4 are going to grow up and wonder about their "missing sibling"?

Nope I don't. I think they'll be very upset at their mother having been in jail and missing part of their childhood.

I am sorry but 28weeks pregnant is a bit too much. That can harm the baby, and it is a baby at that point.

@therescoffeeinthatnebula Absolutely agree with you. Sexual health is a postcode lottery. Davina McCalls Pill Revolution programme touched upon this. I pay for my own Mini Pill Hana from Boots. Its not the pill itself im paying for, Im paying for a, the convienience and b. not having the stress of dealing with our GP surgery which has been in special measures THREE times. And the FP clinic is only on Weds night between 4 and 8 And this is without a lockdown

The only persons opinion who matter is that who is carrying the pregnancy.

1000 times this. In all contexts, this is the over ruling truth for me.

I gather she was 30-32 weeks pregnant and had to lie ot get thenecessary drugs. Her baby was still born.

No, not struggling with anything. Yes, women bear the brunt of pregnancy and matters relating to that. Abortion is part of that, too.

Abortion isn’t new, it’s been around for as long as giving birth has. It’s as natural as giving birth is. Legality doesn’t change this. Nearly half of all abortions worldwide happen in countries where it is illegal, and as such unsafe abortion is a leading cause of maternal death worldwide. Criminalising it doesn’t stop women from accessing it, it just means they’re at a significantly higher risk of injury and death if they do so.

‘Pro life’ laws don’t prevent suffering or death, they increase both.

The whole system in the UK is wrong.

Where I was born, you can only abort till 12 weeks but its your decision. You dont need to get a permission from two doctors. So its much easier and faster to do.

Established case law said that, if the probable consequence of the continuance of the pregnancy would be to make the woman a physical or mental wreck, a doctor terminating the pregnancy is doing so for the purpose of preserving her life.

So by your logic, if a woman who does not want and has never wanted children gets pregnant while using contraceptives, they should be forced to give birth to the baby? Even if they found out at 8 weeks and had access to an early termination?

@eggsbenedict23 will you stop with the primary school arguments? The naivety would be hilarious if it didn't feel so pernicious.

Are you queueing up to look after all the unwanted children being born in your abortion free utopia?

But dates are given as to the search history, starting in February. So she must have known she had not miscarried within the 24 week period.

I completely agree. If women in dire circumstances do not have access to safe and humane abortion as late as necessary then they will access it unsafely.

Yes. "Forced to give birth". Pregnancy is a natural bodily reaction to fetus fertilisation. Are you forced to breath or digest food?

Still a life at 8 weeks. I think there's a heartbeat at week 5/6?