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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Using gender when studying Biology! What are they teaching.

161 replies

Confusedmumannoyedson · 06/06/2023 17:03

So was talking about getting a pet and my son said what gender. I said not gender just boy or girl and he said we aren't 'allowed' to say that anymore we have to use gender. I explained that gender is something you can pick and there are lots people use including them/they which is fine for how someone identifies but not for animals or when talking biology. I am thinking he is confused because he said they use gender in biology now and don't use sex. I checked with a friend who said he is right.

AIBU? Surely sex should be used for a science subject like biology, and gender should be kept for personal use for how someone thinks they are.

OP posts:
TheShellBeach · 06/06/2023 23:58

8state · 06/06/2023 23:54

@TheShellBeach Maybe a woman now is what society has agreed to call a set of socially constructed roles and stereotypes? I think it used to be linked to things like menstruation, pregnancy, menopause, but now I wonder if the definition changed when I wasn't looking.

I do not think so.
The definition is the same as it always was.

ChatWTF · 07/06/2023 00:00

TheShellBeach · 06/06/2023 23:48

How do we define what a woman is?

there are observed differences:

How our brains differ
The neuroscience literature shows that the human brain is a sex-typed organ with distinct anatomical differences in neural structures and accompanying physiological differences in function, says UC-Irvine professor of neurobiology and behavior Larry Cahill, PhD. Cahill edited the 70-article January/February 2017 issue of the Journal of Neuroscience Research — the first-ever issue of any neuroscience journal devoted entirely to the influence of sex differences on nervous-system function.
Brain-imaging studies indicate that these differences extend well beyond the strictly reproductive domain, Cahill says. Adjusted for total brain size (men’s are bigger), a woman’s hippo­campus, critical to learning and memorization, is larger than a man’s and works differently. Conversely, a man’s amygdala, associated with the experiencing of emotions and the recollection of such experiences, is bigger than a woman’s. It, too, works differently, as Cahill’s research has demonstrated.

Studyoflife · 07/06/2023 00:01

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 06/06/2023 23:10

I missed that part.
A female with XX chromosomes but has a male brain and heart? Are they blue instead of pink or something?
No, that's not right at all and makes me doubt that poster has anything to do with biology.

Apologies I missed this.

As stated in my original reply, what I wrote kept disappearing so I gave up and copy pasted. I could argue male female chimerism but equally, someone can “feel” male with two XX chromosomes and vice versa.

My thesis was on the evolution of sexual reproduction, albeit written a decade ago- I’m no longer an academic and have moved into teaching, but still very happy to answer genuine questions about biology especially when they’re about my favourite topic.

I don’t have the energy for the bizarre and unpleasant undertones of a lot of these comments though.

Argue what you like about how you feel, but arguing about the biological facts of different species is just a bit silly.

TheShellBeach · 07/06/2023 00:02

ChatWTF · 07/06/2023 00:00

there are observed differences:

How our brains differ
The neuroscience literature shows that the human brain is a sex-typed organ with distinct anatomical differences in neural structures and accompanying physiological differences in function, says UC-Irvine professor of neurobiology and behavior Larry Cahill, PhD. Cahill edited the 70-article January/February 2017 issue of the Journal of Neuroscience Research — the first-ever issue of any neuroscience journal devoted entirely to the influence of sex differences on nervous-system function.
Brain-imaging studies indicate that these differences extend well beyond the strictly reproductive domain, Cahill says. Adjusted for total brain size (men’s are bigger), a woman’s hippo­campus, critical to learning and memorization, is larger than a man’s and works differently. Conversely, a man’s amygdala, associated with the experiencing of emotions and the recollection of such experiences, is bigger than a woman’s. It, too, works differently, as Cahill’s research has demonstrated.

There's no need to observe people's brains in order to tell which sex they are.

8state · 07/06/2023 00:03

Many thanks @Studyoflife , it was kind of you to post answers. I too accept people feel that way, I just struggle to understand how one can feel like something one physically is not, or that the brain is nothing to do with the body and can have a different identity. Don't worry, every now and then I try to think this through and come to the same conclusion, I just don't get it.

ChatWTF · 07/06/2023 00:05

TheShellBeach · 07/06/2023 00:02

There's no need to observe people's brains in order to tell which sex they are.

You have entirely misinterpreted my post and what makes you think I either don’t know that or think it?

I was replying to the comment/question about the differences between male and female brains inferring there isn’t any - when there clearly physiologically is.

onlytherain · 07/06/2023 00:09

@Studyoflife Are those additional sexes in other species also disorders or are there animal species in which more than 2 sexes are the norm?

Thanks for sharing your views on the graphic. Very interesting! As I said, I am not a biologist and I don't follow the debates amongst biologists, but the mixing of biological fact and ideology seem to be becoming more common. For instance, I have come across it in science videos that suddenly turned into political lectures. This was written by a biologist who seems concerned: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bies.202200173

TheShellBeach · 07/06/2023 00:12

ChatWTF · 07/06/2023 00:05

You have entirely misinterpreted my post and what makes you think I either don’t know that or think it?

I was replying to the comment/question about the differences between male and female brains inferring there isn’t any - when there clearly physiologically is.

Ah okay. Sorry. I misunderstood.

Studyoflife · 07/06/2023 00:45

onlytherain · 07/06/2023 00:09

@Studyoflife Are those additional sexes in other species also disorders or are there animal species in which more than 2 sexes are the norm?

Thanks for sharing your views on the graphic. Very interesting! As I said, I am not a biologist and I don't follow the debates amongst biologists, but the mixing of biological fact and ideology seem to be becoming more common. For instance, I have come across it in science videos that suddenly turned into political lectures. This was written by a biologist who seems concerned: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bies.202200173

I really enjoyed reading this article, thank you. On the whole I think it’s great and does a better job than I have at articulating the importance of not viewing all species from a purely human standpoint when trying to understand biology as a whole. I think it is missing a little nuance but I cannot blame them when trying to hit a word count!

Personally I’m not as concerned as them, because from what I’ve seen, the general biologists are sticking to our clear distinction of sex- but I agree that I think the distinction is essential in that gender cannot apply to non-humans. Perhaps I’ll let the human biologists squabble amongst themselves!

There are multiple species for which more than two genders is the norm (not an exception), though sadly the article brushes over this (I suspect for focus and word count). Physarum slime moulds (hundreds) and schizophyllum mushrooms (thousands) are a couple of extreme examples. Nothing I’ve mentioned about non-humans has been about disorders, because if we were to delve into that, literally anything is possible- just as humans can have disorders, so can all other species!

TheShellBeach · 07/06/2023 00:47

Studyoflife · 07/06/2023 00:45

I really enjoyed reading this article, thank you. On the whole I think it’s great and does a better job than I have at articulating the importance of not viewing all species from a purely human standpoint when trying to understand biology as a whole. I think it is missing a little nuance but I cannot blame them when trying to hit a word count!

Personally I’m not as concerned as them, because from what I’ve seen, the general biologists are sticking to our clear distinction of sex- but I agree that I think the distinction is essential in that gender cannot apply to non-humans. Perhaps I’ll let the human biologists squabble amongst themselves!

There are multiple species for which more than two genders is the norm (not an exception), though sadly the article brushes over this (I suspect for focus and word count). Physarum slime moulds (hundreds) and schizophyllum mushrooms (thousands) are a couple of extreme examples. Nothing I’ve mentioned about non-humans has been about disorders, because if we were to delve into that, literally anything is possible- just as humans can have disorders, so can all other species!

Very possibly, but humans only have two sexes.

Studyoflife · 07/06/2023 00:51

Studyoflife · 07/06/2023 00:45

I really enjoyed reading this article, thank you. On the whole I think it’s great and does a better job than I have at articulating the importance of not viewing all species from a purely human standpoint when trying to understand biology as a whole. I think it is missing a little nuance but I cannot blame them when trying to hit a word count!

Personally I’m not as concerned as them, because from what I’ve seen, the general biologists are sticking to our clear distinction of sex- but I agree that I think the distinction is essential in that gender cannot apply to non-humans. Perhaps I’ll let the human biologists squabble amongst themselves!

There are multiple species for which more than two genders is the norm (not an exception), though sadly the article brushes over this (I suspect for focus and word count). Physarum slime moulds (hundreds) and schizophyllum mushrooms (thousands) are a couple of extreme examples. Nothing I’ve mentioned about non-humans has been about disorders, because if we were to delve into that, literally anything is possible- just as humans can have disorders, so can all other species!

Oh god, apologies I’ve just noticed I said two genders, not two sexes in my last paragraph- absolutely not what I meant, just far too tired now! 🤦‍♀️ Wish there was an edit option.

Boredwitholdname · 07/06/2023 01:01

mathdoc · 06/06/2023 22:17

I think it is useful to separate out the concepts of "sex" and "gender" however I do think that sometimes people are too confident that their understanding of the meanings are the only correct ones. My understanding (which might be incorrect) is that until the mid 20th century these two words were synonymous. Then a group of sociologists decided that it was useful to assign different meanings to the two terms. I'm not comfortable in imposing this change in terminology on everyone, or telling someone they are wrong just because they are not in the group who use these words in the new way.

My understanding too. In ‘my day’ gender referred to the descriptive words: male, female, neuter. I recognise that this has now changed but it would be wrong to assume that the word ‘gender’ has always held its current meaning.

OneLongSmorgasbord · 07/06/2023 01:27

Studyoflife · 07/06/2023 00:01

Apologies I missed this.

As stated in my original reply, what I wrote kept disappearing so I gave up and copy pasted. I could argue male female chimerism but equally, someone can “feel” male with two XX chromosomes and vice versa.

My thesis was on the evolution of sexual reproduction, albeit written a decade ago- I’m no longer an academic and have moved into teaching, but still very happy to answer genuine questions about biology especially when they’re about my favourite topic.

I don’t have the energy for the bizarre and unpleasant undertones of a lot of these comments though.

Argue what you like about how you feel, but arguing about the biological facts of different species is just a bit silly.

So when you say a female can have a male brain and heart, you don't mean the physical organ, you mean something akin to a soul?

Why does that have any part in a discussion on biology?

You said you don't fully understand gender, but have you thought it might be because it doesn't make any sense?

How can a female know what it's like to feel male and vice versa? They can't. You can't know what it's like to be something you're not.

Feelings don't change reality.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 07/06/2023 01:32

@Studyoflife While that was an interesting list of assorted mechanisms of sex determination and disorders of sexual development, none of those things constitute additional sexes in animals.

A bird may be male or female depending on whether it has a Z chromosome. A bee may be male or female depending on whether it comes from a fertilised egg with 2 sex chromosomes or an unfertilised egg with 1. But they're still either male or female. In sequential hermaphrodite species individuals change from one sex to the other - but there are still just 2 sexes. The nearest thing to a third sex would be a hermaphrodite species, where an individual produces both male and female gametes - but they still have only 2 types of gametes, it isn't actually a third sex.

Slime moulds, I grant you, are weird. But not animals.

TheShellBeach · 07/06/2023 01:32

OneLongSmorgasbord · 07/06/2023 01:27

So when you say a female can have a male brain and heart, you don't mean the physical organ, you mean something akin to a soul?

Why does that have any part in a discussion on biology?

You said you don't fully understand gender, but have you thought it might be because it doesn't make any sense?

How can a female know what it's like to feel male and vice versa? They can't. You can't know what it's like to be something you're not.

Feelings don't change reality.

I agree with this.
Men cannot know what it's like to be female.
They still have XY chromosomes.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 07/06/2023 01:36

How can a female know what it's like to feel male and vice versa? They can't. You can't know what it's like to be something you're not.

Feelings don't change reality.

This. Some people may feel how they think it feels to be the opposite sex, but that's not to say they are correct in their interpretation. And even if they were, that still wouldn't change their sex.

Muddays · 07/06/2023 05:00

@Studyoflife
You clearly haven't the faintest clue about science. Plenty of rational thought here except for yours. What exactly are your scientific credentials?

Muddays · 07/06/2023 05:06

@Conkersinautumn @Studyoflife
The basic platform for all life is two sexes. Whether mixed or not. The third sex is a mind f&ck, for the bored/distracted.

Kucinghitam · 07/06/2023 05:38

OK, are we sitting comfortably?

Once upon a time, possibly around a billion years ago, some very simple life-forms hit upon the idea of exchanging little bits of genetic material, which gave them the advantage of variation in changing environments. Amazingly, this is still how the majority of life-forms have “sex” - you may have heard of the worrying phenomenon of antibiotic resistance spreading through populations of bacteria.

Eventually though, some slightly less simple life-forms partially formalised the genetic-stuff-swapping arrangements by requiring different “mating types” - in some species of fungi, there can be a hundred or so mating types. These, therefore, are the only group of living things known to have anything remotely resembling a “spectrum” of sexes.

However, in pretty much all other known life-forms, the number of mating types settled to just two. In higher eukaryotes (this includes humans) there are no additional gametes. (There is extensive debate as to why, because on the face of it mathematically it means that only 50% of other members of your species are suitable mates; I have read various mathematical-modelling scenarios involving distribution of mitochondria etc.)

The reproductive cells, known as gametes, can be isogamous (similar in morphology/size) or anisogamous (different in morphology/size). In anisogamous species, the difference boils down to:

  • Male gametes: Small, motile
  • Female gametes: Large, immotile
(Sometimes with isogamous species, we don’t call them male and female, but + and -.)

Some species produce both male and female gametes in the same individual, these are monoecious species (or in animals can be called hermaphrodites). Some species produce male and female gametes on separate individuals, these are dioecious species (in animals called gonochoric). The primary sexual characteristics of the individual refer to the systems for production of the gametes.

Typically, gonochoric species are sexually dimorphic (they have differences in their bodies as well as the gametes they make) - this is because of the unavoidable differences in necessary adaptions required for successful reproduction; the secondary sexual characteristics are connected with these adaptations.

The manner in which the sexual role of an individual of a gonochoric species is established is variable. Some animals have sex determined by temperature during development (e.g. crocodilians), some can indeed change sex in the truest sense by producing the other gamete (e.g. some species of fish), some have gone for a hardwired chromosomal method (e.g. birds and mammals).

Humans, like other mammals, are a gonochoric anisogamous species whose sex is determined chromosomally, or specifically by the presence of the SRY gene on the Y-chromosome. Your complement of chromosomes is determined the moment your male parent’s small motile gamete fertilised your female parent’s large immotile gamete, and is passed into every cell of your body (except red blood cells, but they are descended from nucleated precursors), where this chromosomal make-up determines how your body develops all those secondary sexual characteristics that evolution has determined are needed for the continuation of the species.

Errors in chromosome segregation, problems with hormone production or receptor function, variations in anatomical growth during embryo development - these are not a spectrum of multiple rainbow sexes, but are DSDs.

There is no known way for human sex, nor any of the true underlying architecture associated with our sexed bodies, to be re-written. We can make superficial modifications to appearance and circulating levels of sex hormones, but that’s it.

The TLDR take home message is that in Homo sapiens sex is binary, is determined at conception and is immutable. We are not Mr/Mrs Potato Head.

No other species has “gender” and most humans do not either.

TheHandbag · 07/06/2023 05:57

Kucinghitam · 07/06/2023 05:38

OK, are we sitting comfortably?

Once upon a time, possibly around a billion years ago, some very simple life-forms hit upon the idea of exchanging little bits of genetic material, which gave them the advantage of variation in changing environments. Amazingly, this is still how the majority of life-forms have “sex” - you may have heard of the worrying phenomenon of antibiotic resistance spreading through populations of bacteria.

Eventually though, some slightly less simple life-forms partially formalised the genetic-stuff-swapping arrangements by requiring different “mating types” - in some species of fungi, there can be a hundred or so mating types. These, therefore, are the only group of living things known to have anything remotely resembling a “spectrum” of sexes.

However, in pretty much all other known life-forms, the number of mating types settled to just two. In higher eukaryotes (this includes humans) there are no additional gametes. (There is extensive debate as to why, because on the face of it mathematically it means that only 50% of other members of your species are suitable mates; I have read various mathematical-modelling scenarios involving distribution of mitochondria etc.)

The reproductive cells, known as gametes, can be isogamous (similar in morphology/size) or anisogamous (different in morphology/size). In anisogamous species, the difference boils down to:

  • Male gametes: Small, motile
  • Female gametes: Large, immotile
(Sometimes with isogamous species, we don’t call them male and female, but + and -.)

Some species produce both male and female gametes in the same individual, these are monoecious species (or in animals can be called hermaphrodites). Some species produce male and female gametes on separate individuals, these are dioecious species (in animals called gonochoric). The primary sexual characteristics of the individual refer to the systems for production of the gametes.

Typically, gonochoric species are sexually dimorphic (they have differences in their bodies as well as the gametes they make) - this is because of the unavoidable differences in necessary adaptions required for successful reproduction; the secondary sexual characteristics are connected with these adaptations.

The manner in which the sexual role of an individual of a gonochoric species is established is variable. Some animals have sex determined by temperature during development (e.g. crocodilians), some can indeed change sex in the truest sense by producing the other gamete (e.g. some species of fish), some have gone for a hardwired chromosomal method (e.g. birds and mammals).

Humans, like other mammals, are a gonochoric anisogamous species whose sex is determined chromosomally, or specifically by the presence of the SRY gene on the Y-chromosome. Your complement of chromosomes is determined the moment your male parent’s small motile gamete fertilised your female parent’s large immotile gamete, and is passed into every cell of your body (except red blood cells, but they are descended from nucleated precursors), where this chromosomal make-up determines how your body develops all those secondary sexual characteristics that evolution has determined are needed for the continuation of the species.

Errors in chromosome segregation, problems with hormone production or receptor function, variations in anatomical growth during embryo development - these are not a spectrum of multiple rainbow sexes, but are DSDs.

There is no known way for human sex, nor any of the true underlying architecture associated with our sexed bodies, to be re-written. We can make superficial modifications to appearance and circulating levels of sex hormones, but that’s it.

The TLDR take home message is that in Homo sapiens sex is binary, is determined at conception and is immutable. We are not Mr/Mrs Potato Head.

No other species has “gender” and most humans do not either.

Thank you

TheTellTaleHeart · 07/06/2023 06:34

Studyoflife · 06/06/2023 22:59

Have you read my comments? If not, it sounds like you’d find them interesting as I’ve addressed your questions- though I’m puzzled at why you slathered them in sarcasm.

I hadn’t. I have now. There’s lots of words there, but still only two sexes.

jeaux90 · 07/06/2023 07:03

OP this is batshit...I went to meet the headteacher at the school to get clarification on this and she agreed.

Go and meet the head and ask that the actual hell that teacher is telling your son. Sex is science and biology so you'd hope he was learning facts rather than ideology.

flutterby1 · 07/06/2023 07:38

"This is becoming a nightmare, I teach my children that gender ideology is similar to religious ideology. It is something that people choose to believe rather than something that can be quantified like biological sex and science."

This

scienceteacher101 · 07/06/2023 08:02

Science teacher here. Biology is not my specialism but I've had to teach more of it over the past few years. I've been astonished at how many resources conflate gender and sex in a context where it can only be referring to biological sex. I always change where possible and or reword in my explanation. I've been teaching science for decades and it's only the past couple of years I've had this need to preface the word sex with "biological" constantly to keep myself right lest the students complain. (And if you teach science and are embarrassed to use the word sex in front of a class then it might be time for a career change.) Some exam board specs still confuse this (eg 2023 CIE IGCSE) but I note it's been removed in the 2025 onwards edition.
They currently name gender as a factor in human nutritional requirements and a risk factor in developing coronary heart disease! Inheritance topic is at least usually clear as most specs still teach XX/XY chromosomes and explain it defines (biological) sex not gender.

CandidaAlbicans2 · 07/06/2023 08:29

So was talking about getting a pet and my son said what gender. I said not gender just boy or girl

@Confusedmumannoyedson YANBU, but as language matters I have to point out that unless the pet you're discussing is a juvenile human, then it's not going to be a "boy" or a "girl", it will be a male or a female. Or if talking about dogs, it would be dog or bitch. If discussing horses, it would be stallion, gelding, or mare. Et cetera. Seeing puppies advertised as "boys and girls available" is a peeve of mine.

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