Using gender when studying Biology! What are they teaching.

[Confusedmumannoyedson]

So was talking about getting a pet and my son said what gender. I said not gender just boy or girl and he said we aren't 'allowed' to say that anymore we have to use gender. I explained that gender is something you can pick and there are lots people use including them/they which is fine for how someone identifies but not for animals or when talking biology. I am thinking he is confused because he said they use gender in biology now and don't use sex. I checked with a friend who said he is right.

AIBU? Surely sex should be used for a science subject like biology, and gender should be kept for personal use for how someone thinks they are.

I think it is useful to separate out the concepts of "sex" and "gender" however I do think that sometimes people are too confident that their understanding of the meanings are the only correct ones. My understanding (which might be incorrect) is that until the mid 20th century these two words were synonymous. Then a group of sociologists decided that it was useful to assign different meanings to the two terms. I'm not comfortable in imposing this change in terminology on everyone, or telling someone they are wrong just because they are not in the group who use these words in the new way.

I’m not familiar with them actually switching sex (I will have to investigate!), but I know giant cuttlefish have really sneaky tactics where smaller males will disguise themselves as females when larger males are around to ‘sneak past’ and mate with the actual females. There’s also another species where the males display male colouration on the side of their body facing females, and female colouration on the side facing males- again to maximise their mating chances. Both lovely examples of game theory!

Anti-trans rhetoric?

That’s how you interpret it, but that doesn’t mean everyone else interprets it the same way and nor should they have to 🤷‍♀️

Which animals would those be snd how do those sexes manifest? Please answer without mentioning clown fish.

I’m also not confident on the exact history of the distinction between sex and gender, although I do think it’s a helpful and important distinction.

Language evolves and words are used differently now to how they used to be; I fully agree with you that we should be careful about imposing language changes, except of course when language becomes undeniably offensive (I can think of many terms that used to be acceptable a hundred years ago that we wouldn’t dream of using now).

That being said, a lot of the kick back from people insisting that sex and gender are equivalent is not a linguistic debate but is rooted in transphobia.

I’m not the person you’re quoting, but I have already answered this 😊

Not at all. Unless they're Miranda Hart.

@Studyoflife It's great that you are here and you seem very knowledgeable. Can you explain to me how, if we say sex is a spectrum in humans (for all the examples you have given above), we could still keep the current taxonomy? I am not a biologist by the way and might be completely wrong.

All the examples you have given about human chromosomes and hormones are outside the norm and medically speaking they are disorders, correct? So, if we said, based on this, sex is a spectrum, we would have to apply this to the entire human taxonomy. Following that, humans would have a spectrum of 0-20 fingers that can be attached to the shoulder, elbow, wrist, hand or anywhere in between. Humans would have a spectrum of 0-2 arms, 0-2 legs, 0-10 nipples etc. Pretty much everything would be a spectrum then. Since we are talking science, the same would have to apply to every specie. Wouldn't that render the whole taxonomy useless? Or how do you get around this problem?

But presumably his teacher who is teaching a 15 year old GCSE science will have some scientific background and know the difference?

I can hear through the wall when my neighbours have gender.

I think the issue is that this distinction comes from Social Science rather than Science.

I tried to dig up the information but I can't actually find anything about any animal (let alone cuttlefish) switching sex alternately with their partner. Looks like I either misunderstood or the lecturer made it up :-(

I did find a lot of really fascinating information though about animals that do switch sex:

https://www.newsweek.com/animals-change-sex-hermaphrodite-evolution-1793036

Wrasse change sex.

I reckon the platypus would be a contender for having more than two sexes or genders or whatevers. They're a bit rebellious.

Cheers. I finally got to this. Not the gotcha the PP was intending but fascinating all the same.

I think it’s chips, or could be beans? Expect its function is a fuel source for the foetus.

😂

Good parenting well done.

You’re right that those examples are exceptions, so for humans we would say that there are two sexes. In biology we’re used to there always being exceptions so we don’t worry about hard and fast rules- we have so many definitions for different things but there’s always at least one example that doesn’t fit, and we love it!

We don’t usually call biological sex a spectrum, although I suppose you could consider those exceptions as being at some point between XX and XY- it’s not something I’d ever considered to be honest.

I think though you’re thinking of the gender spectrum? Sociologically and psychologically we use the term gender to distinguish from XX and XY sexes- gender is how the person experiences life (how they feel, for example), rather than what chromosomes they have. That is referred to as a spectrum as there are many variations that someone may identify with.

Yep
When the boys realised I was very unembarrassed to say vulva, penis and vagina etc quite matter-of-factly it usually became a lesson where they would shut up and listen. I had strict rules about no personal stories etc and that I would answer any questions biologically - if they were too embarrassed they could write it down anonymously. 99% of the time they were some very sweet and innocent questions eg. can you get pregnant standing up?

I was taught to remember some children may be pregnant/ have had abortions so be careful how you phrase things too.

This is a really nicely explained article, great find! 😍

If you’re interested and want a book/audiobook, ‘Dr Tatiana’s Sex Advice To All Creation’ by Olivia Judson is great for interesting examples, or for a deeper dive into the theory then I’d recommend Matt Ridley’s ‘The Red Queen’.

I really don't understand what gender is (apart from in the grammatical sense.) I don't understand in what way it reflects how someone feels. I really wish it wasn't being used so much, it's really confusing. Can anyone explain what it is?

Gender is vague and therefore meaningless.

It does not help that the law is unclear on the definitions and use of sex and gender.

We need 'male' and 'female' and the term 'sex' to be clarified in law.

@Studyoflife there are clearly people who want to conform to stereotypes associated with modern day versions of the opposite sex so in that way gender is a useful word to describe feminine and masculine. As a biologist and a woman, ‘woman’ is off-limits for a change of definition. A woman is an adult female human. To change such a fundamental word is unscientific and dangerous medically.

Just coming in at the end here to find out what the other sexes are. Has @Conkersinautumn provided the list? Or explained what the hell that’s got to do with Noah’s Ark? Other than it being a thinly veiled inference that anyone who believes that there are two immutable sexes is a right wing religious zealot?

@LulooLemon Thank you, I remain confused when people use the word. I don't actually know what they are talking about! I understand when it's paired with words like roles or stereotypes, but as a word on it's own I don't.