To be pissed off with these two women...

[teanntoastinbed]

I was out for an early dinner in a local restaurant with my toddler. We were sitting in the garden, when two women and their young children came In. As is normal there was a little bit of chit chat and interaction.

There was something slightly awkward and odd about them but I couldn't put my finger on it. One of the women was more 'friendly' than the other and was asking a lot of questions... I'm fairly sociable so ended up disclosing I was a single mother and worked full time. I then asked if they were sisters, but apparently they were friends who had met through church. The penny only dropped after one of them asked me if I had a faith and I said I was CofE and then she started to explain their religion to me and how their church didn't allow women to wear trousers and would I consider a change of faith. I was brutally honest and said I had very liberal views and would never contemplate a faith that didn't share my liberal views or persecuted people because of their sexuality or lifestyle choices.

One of the ladies then continued to talk about homosexuality being sinful and how only god can save you and it is only god who can allow you into heaven! Luckily the waitress came over with the bill and I said my awkward goodbye and left. However, now I've had time to think about it I am really pissed off with these two blatant Jehovah's Witnesses, who were basically only chatting to me to brainwash me jnto their way of thinking. I am in no way vulnerable or susceptible to people like this, but many are. I hate the fact that they only started talking to me because they obviously wanted to bring the conversation round to religion! I'm well aware my opinion sounds anything but liberal, and I'm all for a chat about religion but not one that is forced down my throat in a restaurant I'm paying money to eat in and with people speaking in derogatory terms about marginalised groups! Phew... rant over!

There's no point engaging with someone like that. Pure bigotry. Nasty.

Hate crime is never acceptable. I would find it very hard not to tell them to get fucked spouting their disgusting views behind a façade of religion.

I quite enjoy a bit of lively religious debate, so I might have given them a fairly robust argument if I'd been in the mood. But YANBU at all to be annoyed. I think the best thing is to calmly and politely tell people like this to stop talking to you, and if they persist and you're in a café, shop etc, tell them you will complain and ask for them to be kicked out.

I think most people who initiate a conversation with a stranger generally have an agenda. Even the ones that say 'l was just being friendly' are often bored/nosey/curious. Everybody has an agenda for pretty well everything they do. The only distinguishing thing is whetehr it's an agenda you have sympathy with. So someone striking up conversation because they want tome social contact is still an agenda, just one that maybe more people have sympathy with.

A granny asking how old the children are is not the same as telling someone (who as far as they knew could be gay) that homosexuality is wrong and gau people go to hell. It's hateful and disgusting.

I feel sorry for their children tbh.

It's not the same no, but it's equally intrusive. OP continued to engage in conversation. I don't forvone moment think 2 strangers went over and just announced that guys should burn in hell. I'm all for freedom of expression but the price of that freedom is occasionally people will express opinions we disagree with. If you don't wish to engage, whatever the topic, just make it clear.

BTW I believe a lot of people who are 'against' homosexuality aren't against homosexuals as such so not sure it's hateful, though I do acknowledge that sometimes it very much is.

My approach is to be very direct with people who are trying to proselytise like this. As soon as they made a comment about not wearing trousers I would simply have said "Thank you, I have absolutely no interest in hearing about what you or your religion thinks about how I dress or any other of my lifestyle choices. This conversation is now over".

I've had to do this with JWs a few times. It often takes a little while for it to sink in sometimes but a good hard state and utter silence after that tend to do the trick.

*a hard stare of course

I'd feel a lot more "intruded on" is someone came up to me and started making homophobic comments than if they asked how old my children are.

Why do you think the OP is making it up? People do say those things to strangers, I've had it happen to me. I've seen people should it on the street with megaphones.

Homophobia is always hateful.

Sorry JudgeRudy but Freedom of expression does not include hate speech. You might want to look it up.

They were probably from a less-common church. I’ve had similar happen. Usually the person or persons starts off with general chitchat so you reply to be polite and pleasant - and then they gradually go off into some religious stuff and your heart sinks. Don’t get into a discussion with them. It doesn’t work. They just carry on pushing their religion no matter what you say. The best thing to do is to end the conversation. Obviously that’s harder if you’re a captive audience and sitting in a cafe, but you can end the conversation and then turn away from them.

You are right to be pissed off OP. Years ago I was in the park with my DS. I was approached by two young male American Mormon missionaries. They gave me all the spiel blah blah. Wanted me to attend their church the following Sunday. I said I couldn’t make it that Sunday. Thinking to myself or indeed any Sunday. Anyway they told me they going back to America. I would miss them at future services if I didn’t go that Sunday. I didn’t go but guess who were still wandering around a few weeks later. Those two fibbers. I have often wondered what the Mormon view on lying 🤥 is ! The PP whose Mum called the JW’s Jovial Witnesses . Excellent I would consider joining the Jovial Witnesses 😂.

I feel sorry for these young Mormon Missionaries.

I have had many of them visit in the past few years, made them food and drinks ( they all seem to love hot chocolate), mostly young men, sometimes women.

The Missionaries are often very young 18/19 years old, and have had a lifetime of heavy indoctrination.
They carry burdens of their family expectations.
Some thrive, but many are utterly miserable.
They move around every 6 weeks or so to a new area, different missionaries, different churches.
No opportunity to make real friendship bonds during their year or 18 months because they move around so much.
Their lives are very controlled. They don't have their own cash or access to money. They are not allowed to travel around, even on days off they have to keep within their patch.
They can't watch TV or listen to radio, read a newspaper use internet or use a smart phone.
They are forced to share a bedroom room with their companion, ( to limit unholy prctices- ie masturbation) and only have privacy in the toilet or shower.
It is only just recently that the missionaries have been allowed to phone home once a week- before that it was twice a year.

They have to rise at 6.30am, lights out at 10.30pm.

Depression is common, but the local church - the "chapter" will discourage missionaries from seeking medical help for mental health issues- which are seen as a disorder of the spirit, they are advised to pray instead.

It is a horribly controlling church as many are within religion.

"Why do you think the OP is making it up? People do say those things to strangers, I've had it happen to me. I've seen people should it on the street with megaphones."

@AnorLondo l don't think OPs making it up and I've not indicated so. I'm aware that their are people with megaphones everywhere. What I'm suggesting is that although the women might have made the initial contact, it sounds like OP was engaged in a conversation with them. As part of that conversation they said they believed homosexuality was a sin. OP disagreed and paid her bill and left. They didn't harrass her, they just said something she disagreed with OP chose not to engage further.

Article 9 of the Human Rights Actprotects your right to freedom of thought, belief and religion so
"You also have the right to put your thoughts and beliefs into action. This could include your right to wear religious clothing, the right to talk about your beliefs or take part in religious worship."

You said you don't think people approach strangers and tell them gay people are going to hell, but that's exactly what happened to op. And it's happened to me too.

If someone came up to you and initially made polite conversation, but then after a minute or two started going into a racist rant would you be okay with that? Would you see that as no worse than someone asking how old your kids are? You talk about freedom of speech but I'm sure if someone went up to a stranger, especially someone who belongs to an ethnic minority, and started talking about how they believe that white people are superior, the police might well get involved.

But you seem determined to defend these women's hatred for some reason.

@AnorLondo I've realised on every Mumsnet thread there is someone who wants to stir the pot! This experience did happen... I have never used the word 'harassed' I just didn't like someone forcing their homophobia onto me. I class myself as an intelligent person and this wasn't just a general chit chat, both these women had agendas to get more followers! If it was just a general chit chat she would have stopped the religious chat when I told her I was CofE! She dismissed me being CofE and actually said she didn't class it as a proper religion as we follow the word of god as interpreted by a human not by god himself! Let's also be honest, it was 5pm on a Friday and I was with a three year old! The conversation would never have got this deep if it was just general chit chat with another mum! (Can I use the phrase chit chat anymore in one paragraph haha)

@speakout That’s truly awful. Those poor young people. It’s quite simply abuse. No the wonder they feel under pressure to lie to people.I was very young at the time and a single parent so probably I came across as vulnerable to getting drawn into the church. Bloody religion!

You're not understanding. Yes, I know some people do randomly spout off but this isn't what happened here. The women did not just go straight up to a complete stranger and declare they hate gays. They sat together and engaged in a conversation with OP which turned to religion. As part of that conversation they shared there beliefs.
I don't need to agree or disagree with the content. My point was at the point that OP felt uncomfortable because her she disagreed with their views, the conversation ended.
There's no indication the women hate anyone. As I explained earlier, this would not be an arrestable offence. It's not a hate crime.

@JudgeRudy we didn't sit together. One of their children started talking to my toddler and then one of the women started to talk to me. I asked how they met and they said through church. I didn't ask anymore questions and then they asked me if I went to Church. That's when I said I was CofE but not practising and then they started to talk about their religion in a very preachy way (I didn't ask because I didn't want the conversation to go this way). They then made comments about same sex marriages and that's when I said something and they started saying 'homosexuals' are sinners and would burn in hell. It is hard to articulate hoe they seemed quite fanatical and were trying to preach to me. I appreciate what you're saying but I was the one that was actually there and it wasn't just a sweet conversation with someone letting me know their beliefs.

Definitely not exclusive brethren- they wouldn't be going into the establishment..

If you think OP wasn't approached with the express purpose of being converted I have a bridge to sell you.

If they think gay people are sinners deserving of eternal damnation, that's hate.

That's clearer now. Just to clarify I didn't disbelieve anything you've said, it just seemed that posters were assuming too much. As it turns out you've expanded a little, and in your case I think YANU to be offended. If the bill didn't arrive at that moment it sounds like you would have made your views clear, including your right to 'quite enjoyment'.

My argument was that people should be free to express their beliefs...but not at the expense of others. In this case I'd say the women were 'standing on the line' but had not actually 'crossed it'.

I agree that she probably was approached with as a potential convert...and I'm OK with that. By law (England) its not illegal to express these views so this would not be classed as hate crime. It is illegal to harrass or cause a breach of the peace. Targeted abuse or 'inequality' eg standing outside a gay club and chanting "Go to hell!" Would be a hate crime.

There's a line, and l believe these women were close to crossing it, but not quite. As OP said, she was saved by the bill before this potentially became harassment

@JudgeRudy oh totally! If it wasn't for their antiquated beliefs on same sex relationships I would have just listened and nodded politely. I am usually very tolerant but this made me feel uncomfortable. I stupidly told them I was a single mother quite fairly on in the conversation and maybe they saw me as an easier target (which I wasn't) but had I been in a more vulnerable place perhaps I w oh I'd have been swayed. I have seen it happen before with other friends when they are in vulnerable situations. This is no way a post bashing religion. Appreciate your response and I'm sorry if I didn't make it more clear in initial post. I tend to write in rage and then it doesn't probably make as much sense as it did in my head!