Feel guilty about what 19 year old daughter said to me

[sickout]

My 19 year old girl is regularly ride, verbally abusive and can be downright nasty to me and her siblings.
Dad left a few years ago and she's never recovered.
She refused school, refused to get out of bed, refused to do chores .
It has been a horrendous time.
She is now in a place where she still Ives at home and is about to do exams.
I can't believe she is actually doing them such was her anger and school refusal.
She refused counselling or any intervention besides the GP who basically told her to pull herself together or take the support offered.
Her anger and refusals have never stopped her from socialising, holidaying or spending time with friends.
Believe me, I tried everything to support and manage her.
She had turned into her father.
Lacks empathy, selfish and very aggressive and verbally abusive at times.
But only to us in the home.
My other two children have SN and they simply irritate her. She has no input into family life unless it involves holidays, nice food etc r whatever she wants to do.
She is a taker.
It saddens my other children and I very much.
I have tried discipline, taking money away, taking phone away, talking, asking her aunts to talk to her , school involved , GP, psychologist etc .
Nothing has worked.
She is so untidy and has no respect for the home of anyone's belongings .
I love her of course but at times I do t like her behaviour. I'm disappointed at times and she can shock me .
When she is verbally nasty, I feel triggered . I freeze normally. It's like being squared up to by her father . My youngest child with an has started to do the same .
Last night she started again and out of nowhere I said that I would not tolerate being verbally abused by her , that she had turned into her father and that she needed to leave my room.
She was visibly shocked and very hurt.
It stopped her in her tracks .
She cannot stand him either and his verbal abuse and shouting and criticising frightens her.
I feel absolutely awful.
She said that it was a terrible thing to say and she was very hurt.
What do I do here ?
The truth is that she is a carbon copy of him and all the family therapy and work has been centred on dealing with his anger and emotion outbursts and negativity .
Thanks

Yes the clear dislike is evident.

Are there things you do like about her? Can you rememebr things you liked when she was a child? Can you focus on some of these things.

A battle of wills with a child you don't like isn't going to help either of you.

She is behaving in ways like her father but to say she's turned into him is something else. She needs to know you still love her despite her behaviour as you obviously don't love the father any more

this is exactly it. Tigo said it much better than me x

It's the truth. She is obviously disturbed and needs therapy. Tell her. And also tell her you're not prepared to live with it so she'd better shape up soon. Presumably she's playing out learned behaviour from childhood. Insist she seeks help.

The problem is that I adore her and take the crumbs of good behaviour to keep the peace, like I do with my exh.
Yea I've enabled it but was not going to kick her out. Her father does t want her.
I'm all ears about what I should have for. For the last few years, that I didn't do.
It will help me with my son who has emulated her behaviour, except he will be approx 6'6' and is partial to violence also when he cannot regulate his emotions.
All advice considered esp from those who think I handled it badly .
I will respond to each and every one, thanks.

OP you have done the right thing for your child, let alone yourself!

She MUST learn this life lesson - if you are rude and nasty to people they will not be a friend. You love her of course, but her behaviour has been hateful and she needs to know it.

Don't retract your remarks- they are true. It is time she found her feet outside your home.

I have no doubts that your relationship will improve in the future as long as she understands how to treat others (as she would like to be treated herself)

The same goes for your son. He must learn that relationships are a two way street.
You harvest what you sow.

It sounds like you are having a really difficult time, and have obviously had a very difficult time with an abusive ex, and this will have affected the children too.

Have you got any support from Early Help or similar? I really think mumsnet is sometimes the wrong place to ask for help.in complex circumstances as you get all the "sock it to the kids! Punish them!" Crowd who aren't living your life.

I hope you're okay.

I strongly disagree- what OP said was mild given she’s taken many years of this treatment from her daughter. My kids know that nobody speaks to me abusively like OP’s daughter does. Unfortunately being in an abusive relationship likely wore down OP’s boundaries and so she failed to set those boundaries of mutual respect with her daughter. She is not a punching bag and has finally told her daughter as much. That’s not abuse, that’s boundaries.

OP the only thing I would clarify to your daughter today is that you love her and you shouldn’t have said she was turning into her father. But that you stand by what you said when you identified her behaviour as verbal abuse- and that you will no longer tolerate being treated that way.

I think the fact that you compared her to her Dad who she doesn't like or get on well with - if that is true then this may be the wake up call that she needs.

I presume there is some truth to her behaviour being similar to her Dad and will maybe make her think about her behaviour towards you or her siblings in future.

Hopefully this will improve things around the house.

It was a perfectly reasonable and understandable thing to do. The connection with her behaviour and the negative abusive behaviour of her dad gives her an understanding of what her behaviour is doing, because she understands what her dad's behaviour did.
It is not blaming her for how her dad was, it is giving her context to her behaviour which has reached a critical point. That's what teenagers sometimes need.

And yes you're right about regulating emotions. Posters wanting to treat this a s atypical 19 year old/whatever your son os don't see that your kids haven't learnt to regulate emotions due to the environment they were in.

It's a bit like toddler emotions in a child's body.

Anything modelling compassion and emotional regulation is good.

PACE therapy is worth a Google- often used with those who are adopted or have had trauma and the focus is on attachment.

The other book that is really good is "The Explosive Child" by Ross around kids with extreme behaviour and why that is and what helps.

Criticism/slanging matches/etc although satisfying at the time doesn't help in the long run.

I don't think it is as simple as that. The OP raised her daughter in an abusive household. You can't do that and then be surprised when they turn out to be abusive too. Its what she has been learning from a young age. That's not to say the OP has to put up with it indefinitely. If the daughter refuses help and won't change her behaviour then she should be made to leave. But the OP does have some responsibility for how she has raised her daughter.

You held up a mirror to her and she didn't like what she saw. You have obviously tried everything and are at the end of your tether, and you seem to be a loving mother who just wants the best for your daughter. She is behaving appallingly and is an adult now so needs to take responsibility for how she treats you. I would not apologise but would explain that it is her attitude rather than who she is that's causing the problems and that you love her very much but that abuse is unacceptable whoever the abuser is.

@sickout I think there is probably a part of her that has turned into her father to protect her from what she was exposed to from him. The best way for her to cope with a person like your ex is to turn into them, meeting fire with fire, it has become a way now for her to protect herself from any challenging situation she faces.

But there is a part of her that is nothing like him too.

We are all complex people and we all have these bits and pieces of ourselves that are often trying to cope in very challenging situations. I don’t think what you have said to her is wrong but I would try to go to her again with defences down on your side and speak to her about way you are experiencing her behaviour. Not shaming her, reassure her that you love her, but being honest.

If you drop your walls down she might be able to do the same and you might be able to speak to that hurt and confused part of her that she is trying to protect from all the hurt she has experienced.

She is 19. That is an adult.

You will do her no favours at all if you don't point out this issue and treat her like an adult. The mistake would be to treat her like a child - most 19 year olds are full of themselves and often treat parents disdainfully; teach her how to show some respect to another adult. You may feel guilty, but this is about behaviour, and she can change that easily if she cares to. Saying her feelings are hurt etc is a way of simply not addressing it.

Well done, OP. Your daughter has driven you to despair and you told her the truth.

So now, when you are both calm, and preferably won't get any distractions, you need to talk about how your relationship is going to be. Your daughter is an adult and she must be able to engage in some self-reflection if she is going to get on in the world.

You are worth more than her treating you badly because she is angry at her father. I often say that as your children grow up you need to be constantly on the ball and re-evaluating your relationship and how they are treated and how they treat you. It is preparing them for adulthood.

You are allowed to think of yourself and your other children too. Maybe you can show her how her behaviour is rubbing off on the others, and does she want anyone else treating her mum like that?

it's hard OP. But you can do it.

Ooh, that's a new low even for Mumsnet

Abusive male behaviour has morphed into "OP raised her daughter in an abusive household"

Such insidious reframing of the actuality - well done!

Her paternity wasn't thrown in her face.

Her unacceptable behaviour was pointed out to her.

Her father's behaviour isn't her cross to bear, you're right.

Her behaviour is.

Well done OP.

It's obviously really complex, but the simple fact is that the DD is still living with her mum, who has supported her through years of bad behaviour (which is partly understandable, but not all children of abusive fathers do that) and loves her and cares about her. I am assuming the DD feels comfortable that her mother won't throw her out even if she behaves really badly.

So well done OP for saying something that stopped your DD and made her think about her behaviour. She can now choose: fend for herself or stay with her supportive mother. And if she stays with her mother? standards of behaviour will be expected. Seems fair to me.

It’s said now, and it got a reaction. Maybe not an ideal thing to say, but we’re all human and mess up.

I think this is the tack I’d take when you speak to her.” I’m sorry I said that to you last night, but that is how I feel when you behave like that towards me.”

Last night she started again and out of nowhere I said that I would not tolerate being verbally abused by her , that she had turned into her father and that she needed to leave my room. She was visibly shocked and very hurt.
It stopped her in her tracks . She cannot stand him either and his verbal abuse and shouting and criticising frightens her. I feel absolutely awful. She said that it was a terrible thing to say and she was very hurt.

It was a terrible thing to say as she cannot literally turn into her father. You should apologise for saying that and that you meant that she was acting like her father. Then apologise for exposing her as a girl for all those years to an abusive father such that she has learned such behaviour from him- the fact she is like this is because you failed to protect her. See, I’m giving you some hard home truths here too and these are ones you need to own up to if you are ever going to move forward with your daughter. Your daughter has learned that the only way to assert yourself in any relationship is to be verbally abusive from her father. Because that’s the home environment she was raised in. It’s not your fault this happened, but neither is it her fault.

What a 😇 you are . It must be lovely in your house, everyone is calm and polite and helpful and sympathetic. Never a cross word.

So you have time to come on here and give a good kicking , sorry , some lovely advice to someone who is at the end of their tether. 😇😒

OP isn't blaming her for who her father is, or for his behaviour. She is comparing her behaviour to his.

I had a come to jesus moment in my early 20s.
I'd grown up in a household where slagging off was normal - encouraged even, in any circumstances. It's all we knew in our house. The funnier and bitchier it was, the more attention I got.

I was a right asshole who never ever considered other people's feelings, only ever my own. And one day I went too far with a very nice guy I worked with. He pulled me on it and calmly told me that I was being mean and nasty and it would cost me friends.

I needed to hear that. After that I paid attention from then on as to how I treated people. I kept the funny but ditched the mean stuff. Now I cringe so hard at what a cunt I was that I nearly turn inside out - but I take comfort from the fact that I'm not that person any more.

It was a shock - and I'm sure being compared to someone she hates hurt her. But in a follow up conversation you can reiterate that she's your DD, you love her and always will, that yes, her behaviour is very similar to her dad's - but it's up to her to be different and to be better than him - if she wants. And it starts by being respectful to everyone in the house.

Sorry, I thought half the posters on this thread were up for calling someone an abuser being a reasonable call.

If it makes the op uncomfortable, then she might reflect on how it felt to her dd when she did this.