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Original poster

Why so much fuss over Stella Braverman?

930 replies

lastminutepanicking · 22/05/2023 17:03

I’m just wondering who on earth cares? Can’t understand why this is such big news.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
itsgettingweird · 26/05/2023 17:18

Blossomtoes · 26/05/2023 16:48

I thought Tories know what a woman is. Clearly I was wrong.

🤣🤣🤣🙌

itsgettingweird · 26/05/2023 17:20

Alltheprettyseahorses · 26/05/2023 16:50

Has no one noticed I was replying to a poster who repeatedly said there was no reason not to think Braverman wasn't trying to wriggle out of the speeding fine? Unless their posts have been deleted of course, cba to look tbh.

At what point are civil servants responsible for their own behaviour? Why would a junior CS think it's okay to get bladdered in work and why would experienced senior staff allow them to? I know some posters have said it's top down but this can't be blamed on Johnson because he'd only been PM for 3 months before lockdown inc recess breaks so hadn't had time to influence the culture, I don't see May as the type, Cameron was only PM in his own right for a short time, although Sasha Swires' book about him was an eye-opener, so where do we stop?

Surely though it's his job to influence the culture whilst your in their running the show.

It's as simple as when I get new managers. If they change something they send an email informing us.

Johnson surely could have sent an email telling them that any staff caught drinking on the job or premises would face disciplinary procedures?

Not difficult.

And certainly worrying that any boss would have to send such a message in the first place!

Cornettoninja · 26/05/2023 17:21

but this can't be blamed on Johnson because he'd only been PM for 3 months before lockdown inc recess breaks

What?!? ConfusedGrin

At what point are civil servants responsible for their own behaviour? Why would a junior CS think it's okay to get bladdered in work and why would experienced senior staff allow them to?

126 fines were handed out to 80+ people for party gate so that’s most likely the point they’re personally responsible for their own behaviour.

jgw1 · 26/05/2023 17:27

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 16:12

As I said, can be used for any gender. Nothing patient about being corrected.

Show quote history

Talking of being correct @Janiie It is correct that Boris and Rishi are criminals due to attending illegal parties.

jgw1 · 26/05/2023 17:30

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 16:54

We're talking about a widely used lighthearted phrase. You mistakenly thought I'd assumed the junior was a woman but I had said 'they' and 'their'. You're now back peddling.

But yes, Conservatives do know what a women is unlike Labour and the Lib Dems who think a woman can have a penis.

Show quote history

But the Tories don't seem to know @Janiie why a 56 year old needed a birthday party and not millions of children.

CabernetSauvignon · 26/05/2023 17:30

Alltheprettyseahorses · 26/05/2023 13:05

So she was told no in her case gor whatever reason, there's nothing wrong with asking. High profile people, slebs and so on do frequently use them so I'm not sure why she wasn't treated the same. If an advisor said it was a personal matter without knowing what had happened - which they shouldn't have known about anyway, it being a personal matter that ministers aren't allowed to discuss with civil servants - it would have implied guilt and imagine the embarrassing repercussions on them if it turned out Braverman hadn't been speeding.

And why on earth would there be an inquiry over a speeding fine? There never normally is, nor is there ever this much fuss. Braverman is subject to the same rules as everyone else. She isn't above them, which there is no evidence in this case that she tried to be, nor is she below them to be treated worse than everyone else which may disappoint the gleeful witch-hunting mob.

How could it possibly imply guilt? It's perfectly simple to say to a journo something like "I have no idea, I'm a SpAD, I'm not employed to deal with the Minister's personal affairs". No-one could sensibly read an admission of guilt from that

The evidence is, as you know perfectly well, that Braverman tried to use civil servants to deal with this. She clearly did think she was above the rule about not misusing the civil service for her personal business.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 26/05/2023 17:36

I think a PM should have better things to do than preemptively send emails telling civil servants they're not allowed to get drunk at work. Shouldn't that be left to civil service managers? Who on earth would think they were in charge of an organisation where that was seen as okay so they'd have to change it? But there seems to be something rotten in the civil service and the treatment of Baroness Falkner reinforces that.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 26/05/2023 17:39

CabernetSauvignon · 26/05/2023 17:30

How could it possibly imply guilt? It's perfectly simple to say to a journo something like "I have no idea, I'm a SpAD, I'm not employed to deal with the Minister's personal affairs". No-one could sensibly read an admission of guilt from that

The evidence is, as you know perfectly well, that Braverman tried to use civil servants to deal with this. She clearly did think she was above the rule about not misusing the civil service for her personal business.

Show quote history

That would have been a perfectly reasonable answer, yes. However, people aren't reasonable. They're often crap under pressure or say the wrong thing or just totally mess up. Braverman merely asked a question. The rest is a hyperbolic witch hunt which happens a lot on mumsnet.

Roussette · 26/05/2023 17:41

Braverman merely asked a question

No. She asked a civil servant to arrange a 1 to 1. She didn't ask if it were possible. I read that in two news reports.

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 17:43

'I think a PM should have better things to do than preemptively send emails telling civil servants they're not allowed to get drunk at work. Shouldn't that be left to civil service managers? '

This! I wonder if the Queen kept a check on juniors at the Palace in lockdown, make sure noone was getting pissed. Oh no that'll have been down to direct line managers. Yes we know civil servants seem hopeless so their direct bosses no doubt are too but to expect Boris to be policing the whole place is batshit.

Blossomtoes · 26/05/2023 17:53

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 17:43

'I think a PM should have better things to do than preemptively send emails telling civil servants they're not allowed to get drunk at work. Shouldn't that be left to civil service managers? '

This! I wonder if the Queen kept a check on juniors at the Palace in lockdown, make sure noone was getting pissed. Oh no that'll have been down to direct line managers. Yes we know civil servants seem hopeless so their direct bosses no doubt are too but to expect Boris to be policing the whole place is batshit.

He joined in. There are countless pictures of him in booze filled rooms/gardens during lockdown. He even got fined, ffs.

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 17:56

'He joined in. There are countless pictures of him in booze filled rooms/gardens during lockdown. He even got fined, ffs.'

At work gatherings. Like Durham.

To suggest standing round a table of sandwiches is a 'party' is again a massive stretch, bit like braverman and her daring to ask if a 1 to 1 was possible was a discusting waste of a junior's <male or female> time . The desperation is strong.

countrygirl99 · 26/05/2023 17:57

Well, I work for a global retail bank and we got company wide emails from the CEO re covid policies and interpretation of the regs. I would have thought that was pretty normal in large organisations. Then up to line managers to enforce. But if staff found out the CEO was boozing on the job it would have gone down very badly and had a seriously detrimental effect on staff morale.

GrannyRose15 · 26/05/2023 17:57

CabernetSauvignon · 25/05/2023 23:55

I haven't seen anyone on this thread called any of those things. Of course, if they are actually racist on MN they may well be called racist, but I can't say I recall anyone being called racist just for expressing different views from others. The trouble is, of course, that racists rarely if ever acknowledge their racism, so they may think it's perfectly fine to express a racist opinion and that it's outrageous to be called out on it.

Show quote history

I was talking generally but you have perfectly illustrated my point. Thankyou.

Roussette · 26/05/2023 17:58

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 17:43

'I think a PM should have better things to do than preemptively send emails telling civil servants they're not allowed to get drunk at work. Shouldn't that be left to civil service managers? '

This! I wonder if the Queen kept a check on juniors at the Palace in lockdown, make sure noone was getting pissed. Oh no that'll have been down to direct line managers. Yes we know civil servants seem hopeless so their direct bosses no doubt are too but to expect Boris to be policing the whole place is batshit.

We'd never know about Buck House, NDA's and all of that.

It's about the party culture which he partook of.

GrannyRose15 · 26/05/2023 17:59

Blossomtoes · Today 17:53
Janiie · Today 17:43
Well said!

jgw1 · 26/05/2023 18:02

Alltheprettyseahorses · 26/05/2023 17:39

That would have been a perfectly reasonable answer, yes. However, people aren't reasonable. They're often crap under pressure or say the wrong thing or just totally mess up. Braverman merely asked a question. The rest is a hyperbolic witch hunt which happens a lot on mumsnet.

Show quote history

I take it you would welcome an inquiry so all the relevant correspondence can be put in the public domain, thinking about it, if it were done by email, why doesn't Braverman just release them and prove her innocence?

jgw1 · 26/05/2023 18:03

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 17:43

'I think a PM should have better things to do than preemptively send emails telling civil servants they're not allowed to get drunk at work. Shouldn't that be left to civil service managers? '

This! I wonder if the Queen kept a check on juniors at the Palace in lockdown, make sure noone was getting pissed. Oh no that'll have been down to direct line managers. Yes we know civil servants seem hopeless so their direct bosses no doubt are too but to expect Boris to be policing the whole place is batshit.

Was the Queen breaking lockdown rules?

Clavinova · 26/05/2023 18:05

jgw1
It is correct that Boris and Rishi are criminals due to attending illegal parties

A fixed penalty notice is not a fine or criminal conviction because of the distinction that the recipient can opt for the matter to be dealt with in court instead of paying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_penalty_notice

jgw1 · 26/05/2023 18:06

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 17:56

'He joined in. There are countless pictures of him in booze filled rooms/gardens during lockdown. He even got fined, ffs.'

At work gatherings. Like Durham.

To suggest standing round a table of sandwiches is a 'party' is again a massive stretch, bit like braverman and her daring to ask if a 1 to 1 was possible was a discusting waste of a junior's <male or female> time . The desperation is strong.

@Janiie why was it acceptable for a 56 year old to stand around a table celebrating his birthday but not millions of children?

Blossomtoes · 26/05/2023 18:09

jgw1 · 26/05/2023 18:06

@Janiie why was it acceptable for a 56 year old to stand around a table celebrating his birthday but not millions of children?

Show quote history

I know this one. It’s because children aren’t old enough to drink or pay their FPNs.

countrygirl99 · 26/05/2023 18:11

Rhondaa · 26/05/2023 17:56

'He joined in. There are countless pictures of him in booze filled rooms/gardens during lockdown. He even got fined, ffs.'

At work gatherings. Like Durham.

To suggest standing round a table of sandwiches is a 'party' is again a massive stretch, bit like braverman and her daring to ask if a 1 to 1 was possible was a discusting waste of a junior's <male or female> time . The desperation is strong.

The difference I'd Boris was a few yards from his residence. Durham is a bit far to go back to London for a meal during the working day.

Clavinova · 26/05/2023 18:23

countrygirl99
The difference is Boris was a few yards from his residence. Durham is a bit far to go back to London for a meal during the working day

^Interviewed on LBC radio in January, Sir Keir said: ‘No restaurants were open, no pubs were open. The hotel we were staying in had no food, they didn’t run food. So if you didn’t get a takeaway then our team wasn’t eating that evening.’
But The Mail on Sunday can reveal that Sir Keir stayed at the Radisson Blu hotel in Durham – and that its restaurant was serving food outside on its terrace until 9pm.^
Labour declined to say when Sir Keir checked into his hotel or whether there had been a chance for him to eat there before the restaurant closed.
The revelations come after Labour was forced to admit Ms Rayner had been at the Miners Hall gathering, having previously categorically insisted in response to Daily Mail questions: ‘Angela wasn’t there.’
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10771551/Keir-faces-fresh-Beergate-scrutiny-claims-hotel-did-not-serve-food-9pm.html

jgw1 · 26/05/2023 18:33

Clavinova · 26/05/2023 18:23

countrygirl99
The difference is Boris was a few yards from his residence. Durham is a bit far to go back to London for a meal during the working day

^Interviewed on LBC radio in January, Sir Keir said: ‘No restaurants were open, no pubs were open. The hotel we were staying in had no food, they didn’t run food. So if you didn’t get a takeaway then our team wasn’t eating that evening.’
But The Mail on Sunday can reveal that Sir Keir stayed at the Radisson Blu hotel in Durham – and that its restaurant was serving food outside on its terrace until 9pm.^
Labour declined to say when Sir Keir checked into his hotel or whether there had been a chance for him to eat there before the restaurant closed.
The revelations come after Labour was forced to admit Ms Rayner had been at the Miners Hall gathering, having previously categorically insisted in response to Daily Mail questions: ‘Angela wasn’t there.’
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10771551/Keir-faces-fresh-Beergate-scrutiny-claims-hotel-did-not-serve-food-9pm.html

Is that your third best argument for why Suella should stay as Home Secretary @Clavinova ?

Clavinova · 26/05/2023 18:59

MrsSkylerWhite
No I’m not. I’m citing yet another example of behaviour by a Tory MP that definitely falls well within the bounds of scum.
Do you disagree? Watching pornography at work is acceptable behaviour?

Of course it's not acceptable behaviour, but why would Neil Parish watching 'tractor porn' in 2022 be a justification for Angela Rayner calling Chris Clarkson 'scum' in a House of Commons debate in 2020? And why would you bring up Neil Parish when Labour have had three sex-related 'scandals' this month alone?

May 2023 - Female Labour MP accuses shadow minister of sexual assault
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/11/female-labour-mp-accuses-shadow-minister-of-sexual-assault

May 2023 - Labour aide ‘allowed to continue work after sexual harassment complaint upheld’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/10/labour-defends-complaints-process-after-three-year-delay-in-harassment-case

May 2023 - Former Labour MP Paul Clark jailed over child abuse images