to think the UK needs to think about the role of the religion and the State given that that only 1/3 of people say they are religious

[cakeorwine]

Interesting survey results

lost-faith-the-uk's-changing-attitudes-to-religion.pdf (kcl.ac.uk)

1/3 of people are religious, 46% aren't religious and 20% are atheist (not sure of the difference)

50% believe in God and 48% don't - so that's a bit weird if you think about the previous survey

About half of people believe in life after death and about half don't

Interesting survey - the UK is one of the least religious countries in the world. Something you might not have believed if you think of our anthem and also the recent Coronation.

Yes, it's entwined in our laws. So are lots of things that don't actually do anything. It's like old software, lines of code left in that are obsolete but going through to remove them would be one hell of a job because if you're not careful you'll end up reintroducing a few bugs.

The CofE doesn't have any political power or influence. I thought that I'd made that clear.

So you don't think we can disestablish the Church of England and the State because "something might break" in the code.

Maybe we do need to "read the code" and see what the actual link is.

Anyway - it will be seen as an archaic link - hopefully in my life time.
And Christianity will carry on.

I wonder if our anthem will ever change to reflect a changing society?

MasterGland
Ooh, we might get the cathedrals back though.

Steady on now!! Besides, some of them are post Reformation; you can't just nab the pretty ones back, you know 😉

Sorry - who has the Cathedrals at the moment?

Same argument that I've got for keeping the monarchy. It isn't broke so don't fix it. I'd rather have a system that seems a bizarre set up but works, than one that makes sense on paper but doesn't. Becoming a strictly secular republic doesn't appear to be helping the US keep religion out of lawmaking.

Same argument that I've got for keeping the monarchy. It isn't broke so don't fix it. I'd rather have a system that seems a bizarre set up but works

Works for some people.
Not others.

How much parliamentary time and civil service manpower do you want to devote to reading the code? The government have just announced that they don't have the parliamentary time to reform the railways - something that actually affects people - so I don't know how you could justify devoting time to pointless constitutional tinkering.

If they're CofE then the CofE does. Fairly obviously. And the state doesn't pay for their upkeep.

If they're RC, Orthodox etc then they belong to those denominations.

That's an argument for doing nothing.

Can you think of any potential issues?

This thread is totally batshit. There is far more daily collective worship going on in schools (over a third of the primary sector is C of E) than people realise and engagement with churches and their associate charities/outreach is huge even if church attendance isn’t. You’re atheist and hostile to religion, we get it. But you clearly have no idea about how entwined religion in all its forms is in Britain today. It’s quietly cracking on in the background while you’re bitching about how irrelevant it is.

So who gets them back then?

I dont know any non-church state schools that have a daily act of worship

And yet only a 1/3 of people are religious.

So it's relevant in some people's lives - but it's not an argument for having an Established Church.

The only argument has been that it's complicated to disestablish

There has been no religious argument.

So I guess that if the Government made it official that schools did not have to have a compulsory daily act of worship, there would be no complaints from the various Churches?

The Roman Catholic Church. How's your English ecclesiastical history?
See, it's an even bigger can of worms than you thought, though I assume you're not planning to abolish the CofE yet.

God isn’t rarely mentioned in the USA.
Every school day, every American child pledges allegiance to the flag of the United States of America in every public school with the words

“I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

I completely agree with you, OP. Thank you for keeping on with this, despite the ridiculousness of some of the replies.

I absolutely hate religion being imposed on me and my children.

Why would disestablishing Church and State lead to abolishing the Church of England? They might want to rebrand themselves though.

Presumably the Catholic Church, as it owned them before Henry VIII split from Rome and C of E was established?

Im not aware of the various churches complaining about the fact that the current law is basically ignored, so I don't think they would start complaining if the law were updated to reflect the reality of what is actually happening.

So 26 members of the 798 members of the House of Lords are professional religious…that’s 3% of the House of Lords.

The King isn’t actually the State Sovereign anyway, so his role as head of C of E is about the only thing left to the monarch.

If anything we need some Imans and Rabbis and Lamas and Sikhs and Catholic bishops and so on so that the HoL can be 1/3rd religious & properly represent the 1/3rd of the population that is religious.

It's going to look archaic to have the link between Church and State. Most modern countries don't have this link.

How far back in time do you want to go?! The Roman Republic had Gods and State separated, and then it became the Roman Empire with Gods and State linked by a deified Emperor.

Examples abound back as far as records go of civilisations with church and state linked or separated. Neither structure is more archaic than the other.

I wonder what would happen if William said "Sorry, I don't believe in God" - as is possible and then didn't want to go say the Coronation oath as it's a little bit religious. I guess he doesn't have much choice.

Sir, to keep you ever mindful of the law and the Gospel of God as the Rule for the whole life and government of Christian Princes, receive this Book, the most valuable thing that this world affords. Here is Wisdom; this is the royal Law; these are the lively Oracles of God.

The Moderator receives the Bible and places it before The King. The King stands and the Archbishop says:

Our Majesty, the Church established by law, whose settlement you will swear to maintain, is committed to the true profession of the Gospel, and, in so doing, will seek to foster an environment in which people of all faiths and beliefs may live freely. The Coronation Oath has stood for centuries and is enshrined in law.
Are you willing to take the Oath?

The King replies
I am willing.

The King places his hand on the Bible, and the Archbishop administers the Oath
Will you solemnly promise and swear to govern the Peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, your other Realms and the Territories to any of them belonging or pertaining, according to their respective laws and customs?

The King replies
I solemnly promise so to do.

The Archbishop says

Will you to your power cause Law and Justice, in Mercy, to be executed in all your judgements?

The King replies
I will.
The King kneels at the Chair of Estate. The Archbishop says
Will you to the utmost of your power maintain the Laws of God and the true profession of the Gospel? Will you to the utmost of your power maintain in the United Kingdom the Protestant Reformed Religion established by law? Will you maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the Church of England, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established in England?

And will you preserve unto the Bishops and Clergy of England, and to the Churches there committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges as by law do or shall appertain to them or any of them?

The King replies
All this I promise to do.

The King places his hand on the Bible and says
The things which I have here before promised, I will perform and keep. So help me God.
The King kisses the Bible. The Archbishop says

Your Majesty, are you willing to make, subscribe, and declare to the statutory Accession Declaration Oath?

The King replies
I am willing.

I Charles do solemnly and sincerely in the presence of God profess, testify, and declare that I am a faithful Protestant, and that I will, according to the true intent of the enactments which secure the Protestant succession to the Throne, uphold and maintain the said enactments to the best of my powers according to law.

The King signs copies of the Oaths, presented by the Lord Chamberlain, whilst the choir sings
Prevent us, O Lord, in all our doings with thy most gracious favour, and further us with thy continual help; that in all our works begun, continued, and ended in thee, we may glorify thy holy name, and finally by thy mercy obtain everlasting life; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Or maybe they can get voted in and they should represent the general population?

Other groups might also demand professional representation and a similar proportion as well in the House of Lords.

How doesn't it work for you? What aspect of your life is different because a bloke in a funny hat dribbled some oil in the shape of a cross on the king's chest?