To not understand why English businesses won't accept Northern Irish banknotes

[bunsaremybesties]

I am from Northern Ireland, legally a part of the UK that uses sterling. I am currently on holiday in England. In a shop yesterday there were signs displayed saying "we cannot accept Scottish or Irish notes".

My problems with this are:
(a) the use of the phrase Irish notes - personally I don't really have a strong preference for calling myself either British or Irish, but to my ears, "Irish notes", due to the current real-life currencies used on the island of Ireland, would be euro notes, used in the Republic of Ireland. So of course a shop in England would not accept these, just as it would not accept American notes or Mexican notes. I would have thought Northern Irish notes would have been a more accurate description, as Northern Ireland uses the same currency as England.

(b) what is the reasoning for not accepting "Irish"/Northern Irish banknotes, when they're exactly the same currency as those used in England, Wales and Scotland? While in Northern Ireland we do print our own banknotes, we also regularly use and accept banknotes issued in other regions of the UK. I work in a shop and within any hour block at work, I deal with any number of notes from customers that were issued by the Bank of England, Clydesdale Bank, Bank of Scotland etc. The notes have exactly the same value as those issued by Northern Irish banks like Ulster Bank or Danske Bank, so why on earth wouldn't we accept them? It's not even a consideration in our minds to refuse them. Why is it different in England?

(c) if the justification is that Northern Irish notes are not "legal tender" in England, well then everyone who lives in Northern Ireland is in trouble because in Scotland and Northern Ireland no notes, not even ones issued in those countries, are "legal tender". They are, however, legal currency and so are perfectly acceptable to be used for trade.

Can anyone explain please?

I’ve seen NI notes refused in Scotland too.

I expect it would be much the same as this thread where people would be advised to obtain Scottish notes if they want to go to Scotland. Don’t let that get in the way of taking offence at an incredibly minor point though

When I worked in banking for an English branch of one the Scottish banks mentioned upthread we would return any paid in Scottish or N. Irish notes to the cash centre for onwards "repatriation" to the issuing country of origin.
I also heard that in the 80s some English bank cashpoints in wealthy places like Knightsbridge would issue Scottish £100 notes because ATM withdrawals were higher value.
I have only ever seen one £100 Scottish note and there isn't an English equivalent . I had to check it against a reference manual held in the branch!

It seems reasonable to me that they wouldn't want to. And yes it probably is worth shops near the Scottish border being more flexible. Shops near the Irish border have often been flexible in this way too - punts, euros, sterling accepted. It's worth it when enough customers are involved.

Shops in Scotland could refuse Bank of England notes if they wanted to - up to them to decide if they'd benefit from doing so. Since they're standardised, likely to be carried by international visitors, and apparently less liable to be forged than other sterling notes, it would be an odd choice, but their choice.

Surely when someone is trying to pay for something in a shop it’s obvious that this is not the same as depositing large sums of cash into a bank account? And surely in places like Carlisle (close to the border) Scottish notes will be more prevalent?

Legal tender is a non concept when it comes to spending money, there's no such thing really.

People don't take Scottish or Irish notes because they don't want to and they don't have to. They don't have to take sterling. I'll take euros, dollars, goats if it's a good enough deal.

multiple issuing banks are annoying from a counterfeit perspective

It has nothing to do with it being legal tender or not. Businesses are not required to accept any notes in a shop transaction whether they are legal tender or not.

Legal tender is only relevant when settling a debt, not when deciding whether or not to accept an offer in exchange (which is what a shop transaction amounts to). So shops are just as entitled to turn down BofE notes if they want to as they are to turn down Scottish or NI notes.. And many do refuse higher value BofE notes.

When you use a machine to accept currency you can program it to recognise all sterling currency just about as easily as to recognise just one, so there's little cost to doing so. Whereas training up staff is ongoing and more costly, especially if they rarely encounter the notes.

It's one of those things you live with, daft though it is. I to and fro between England and N Ireland a couple of times a year and just hang on to odd notes until the next time. Trying to use a NI note in London is asking for grief (and we tap so often anyway now).

Just who issues notes in N Ireland is curious. AIB (and some other outfits) dispense B of England notes at ATMs. The three banks with their own notes are Ulster Bank, Bank of Ireland and Danske Bank. BoI therefore has sterling issued by its NI subsidiary, but its Euros for all in the Republic. Danske? Yes, Northern Bank was bought by Danske and their name is on the notes.

Ulster Bank has the prettiest notes.

I remember back in the 90s arriving in Glasgow to discover that lots of businesses wouldn't accept Bank of England £20 notes - exactly for the same reason - risk of forgery.

I don't remember any uproar. Perhaps it would be different now, if so, probably because of a certain degree of weariness of complaints from north of the border about the wicked English.

Legal tender has nothing to do with spending either

The refusal of an offer of legal tender to settle a debt renders the debt unenforceable in court

A purchase in any Sterling currency in the UK has nothing to do with debt or legal tender

It'd be a lot easier if there weren't multiple banks in Scotland & NI all issuing their own notes. You can't expect shop staff to be experts in recognising forgeries of over 20 different banknotes that they might see once in a blue moon.

@MMBaranovathanks for the pics! I've never seen a NI note (like many other people)

For Pete's sake! If you must get that technical, well, they are Irish notes because they come from Ireland! Just not from the state that covers the majority the island.

Have you complained to Bushmills Distillery because it markets its product as "Irish whiskey"? 😉

As somebody mentioned earlier, (N) Irish and Scottish notes are accepted and can be identified by machines such as at self-service tills in shops. The reason is simple. The supplier of the hardware/software and the purchaser (the shop) don't want to have different machines or different programming for their stores in N Ireland or Scotland.

A question for our posters in Scotland & Northern Ireland: Have you had problems exchanging your non Bank of England notes for local currency at Bureaux de Change while abroad?

I fully agree!

Thank you @Sissynova but I still don’t understand the difference between currency and tender. Am I the only thick person on this thread?

Currency is money
There is no such thing as ‘legal currency’

’Legal tender’ is the recognised amounts of each denomination of currency.
If you go to court to try and get legal enforcement against a debt, the case will be rejected if the debtor has offered payment in legal tender

Stating that Bank of England currency is legal tender is a false statement
Bank of England notes plus £1 and £2 coins are legal tender up to any value of debt
50p & 20p coins are legal tender only up to £10 of debt
10p and 5p coins up to £5 of debt
1p and 2p coins up to 20p

When someone tells a witty story that somebody paid their debt with a wheelbarrow of 1p coins, and that taught a lesson, are talking rubbish
It can be rejected, a court would accept a debt and the bailiffs would enforce it

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/explainers/what-is-legal-tender

https://www.royalmint.com/help/trm-faqs/legal-tender-amounts/

It is not English-centric to state that Bank of England banknotes are normal in England. It's stating a fact. They are far more commonly used than any Scottish or Northern Ireland banknote.

I had BofE £20 and £50 notes turned down in England in some places in the 80s/90s. There were so many forgeries businesses just didn't want them. Complete pain as it was all cash points wanted to give.

Totally missing the point of the thread, but I can't remember the last time I paid for anything in cash. Even fish and chip shops accept cards now

I think I sort of get it now @tommika thank you.

I think “normal” was used in the sense of usual, prevalent, expected. Not as an opposite to abnormal. BofE notes are the norm in England and Wales of course. I don’t think it was meant as some imperialistic jingoistic slur.

Nor me. Someone paid a silly bet I made (and won!) with a note recently and I know I’ll have it in my purse for ages. I have coins in the car for the occasional car park that only takes coins, but that’s it!

This used to drive me mad in the 90s when I lived in London and my Northern Irish family would send me birthday money! I soon found out that the Swan pub in Stockwell was happy to accept them, so problem solved!