To worry about the right wing?

[Swingstotheleftslidetotheright]

I'm politically homeless at the moment in terms of who to vote for but morally I sit firmly centre/centre left. I'm very British with that it would seem.

I've seen over the last few years a very hard push left across social media and among the "chattering" classes which has seemingly come with a desire to shut down discussion, debate and conversation if it involves even the mildest of challenge to their way of thinking. What seems to be happening as a result of this shutting down and refusal to engage in a debate is a rise in harder line opposition, whereas before the two sides would have a somewhat heated and healthy discourse about an issue and come away mindful of each others views and with a solution in sight.

I'm noticing the louder the left shout the harder the, previously moderate, right push back and vice versa. Both sides appear to be getting more vocal and more extreme. I'm seeing this a lot around migration, feminism, the economy and crime. I'm now worried that this continued closure of conversation is going to lead us down a path of extremism - from one or both sides - and lead us to a dramatic and unwelcome rise from the far right.

Are we at a point of no return? Can we ever go back to being moderate and tolerant?

It's the maths - Cons on about 27 per cent. That's the headbanger vote; because it looks like moderate Cons are not turning out.

Women’s rights - how about transgender pinko headbanger policies

Getting better all the time, lucky dd (not, how depressing)

Plus I doubt the I’ll switch to reform voters are turning up in any case.

@CoffeeCantata I have found the same. I think there was some research that right wing people see left wingers as well intentioned but naive and left wing people see right wing people as evil. My church is very conservative, I’m sure many mumsnetters would describe their views as ‘vile’ (women & men equal but different, transgender politics not ok, anti gay marriage) but they help hundreds of the most vulnerable people in our community each week. I tend to judge people on their actions rather than beliefs.

As i said, its not my experience in RL.

You quote Rayners Scum remark, taking it out of the context that she was referring to MPs voting to keep children hungry, what would you someone you knew who deliberately kept a child with less food than they need?

She also (rightly) apologised for it but according to you most left wingers are nasty spiteful people based on what? you ve probably met less than 100 left wingers in your entire life!

Irony personified!

imho left or right wing doesn't make anyone a "nice person" there is far more to a persons character than their politics.

I know plenty of Tory voters who are kind and generous as i do Labour supporters, don't really understand what point your trying to make, its purely anecdotal.

I heard a really good question (from a source that I can't name here) yesterday which is a great way to gain an insight into someones mind.

When was the last time you changed your mind ?

On what?

Anything or just politics?

If the latter sure, quite recently. When things up date / change I’m listening

If the former yeh sure recently too

@Howpo

Oh yes - I recall now the Angela Rayner reference, but that genuinely wasn't what I was thinking of - I actually see the term used mostly on MN and Guardian forums (and from the horrible brother of a friend of mine).

I do appreciate we are both talking about personal experience, and there's no arguing with that - but here's an eg of a time when I (as a non-Tory, non-Labour voter) was struck by the spitefulness of a left-winger - will try to be concise.

When working for a national museum, we used to run outreach weeks to areas where schools couldn't visit London. We liaised with the LEA who booked their choice of schools into our activity sessions (no charge). I arrived at the centre and met the relevant guy, who wore his political views very much on his sleeve. He said 'We had a lot of enquiries from the schools in X area (affluent) but we've refused to book them. We've only booked schools in from Y (deprived area), so that smug, over-privileged bunch can just ..... off!' He said this with obvious enjoyment.

Now, I agreed with the policy, and if he'd put it perfectly reasonably, such as 'We've booked in schools from the less-privileged part of the county because we thought it would be a great opportunity for enrichment for them', I would have thought - brilliant! It was just the venom (politics of envy??) that really jarred with me.

Also - the vile couple of male teachers in the English Dept of the school I worked at in Brum when a young teacher. They claimed to be Marxists, and were very unpleasant. They were really sexist and praised one boy because of his choice of girlfriends 'He really knows how to pick'em!'. I never saw these men smile except in a nasty context.

But I always hope I'll meet a nice, warm, friendly, open-minded left-wing person - they must exist!

I’m afraid it’s mn that has adjusted my view. Over Brexit and pandemic, too much aggression.

I actually enjoy discussing a spectrum of political views irl

If you think about it, what you chose forms part of the answer ... it's one of those rare occassions when it is all about you.

Both then, yes

You?

As a gender-critical Jew, the left scares me more.

I realised that as long as you forget any pretence at re-use, ziplock bags are OK for freezer use.

And much as I detest Tim Martin, Wetherspoons isn't that bad to meet friends and family in.

I’m afraid it’s mn that has adjusted my view. Over Brexit and pandemic, too much aggression.

I know what you mean, Sunny Egg. The level of aggression towards anyone who disagrees politically can be scary on here. I've been accused of all kinds of extreme views on the basis of practically nothing!

To me, it's just another manifestation of the polarisation of almost everything now. If you're not beautiful, your'e ugly. If you're not left-wing, you must be a fascist. It's not going to get us anywhere.

My point is that left wingers are often really nasty, spiteful and aggressive people in practice.
Yes, as a left winger I would agree with this, particularly regarding the militant left, and some of them terrify me, to put it mildly.

The very term 'Tory scum' is one clear example - there isn't really an equivalent generalisation for the left-leaners.
I don't think that is a clear example - the "loony left" and various other mental health slurs would be the equivalent and are just as spiteful. A very quick glance at the comments section of the DM will attest to all manner of aggressive and hateful views and words towards the left. And that's not to mention the racism and far right anti-immigrant rhetoric.

Yes, by logic left-wingers ought to be nicer people - but IME, in everyday encounters, they're not. I could give many, many examples from my work in education and museums

I think your experience has been hugely skewed - the education sector is predominately left leaning so obviously you've been disproportionately exposed to left wingers during your professional life. On top of that, the museum industry specifically is tilted towards a younger employee demographic, certainly compared to the heritage sector as a whole. The young are not only left leaning but more militant and tribal, becoming more moderate as they age (academics in education less so I would say). Obviously that's a big generalisation but it's definitely a clear pattern. Whereas on the right, people become more entrenched in their views as they age. The museum sector is notoriously badly paid so a lot of people don't stick around as they get older, which is why it remains a young - and left wing - workforce.

But I always hope I'll meet a nice, warm, friendly, open-minded left-wing person - they must exist!

Oh.

Lol maybe you should start a thread, I’m sure you’d get loads on same lines ;

Yeh same here on the accusations

Yes, by logic left-wingers ought to be nicer people

Shrug.

People are people. Complex and each with their own little universe. And things are never plain and simple (nod to dear Oscar).

Remember how easy it was to game someone into diametric views by reductionism ? In case anyone has forgotten ...

The far Left is much more terrifying than the far Right.

The very term 'Tory scum' is one clear example - there isn't really an equivalent generalisation for the left-leaners.

You regularly get right wingers being disparaging about ‘lefties’ on here (or ‘loony lefty’, as a PP has said), or ‘the woke’. Another insult is ‘lefty lawyers’.

So not as bad as ‘Tory scum’, but rude and derogatory nonetheless.

How to tell someone is straight, white, able bodied and part of the ethnic majority of the country they reside in, in 3 easy steps.

Although ‘far’ anything is awful.

Left or right, the most terrifying are those that have your interests at heart.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

Couple that with a dash of the old John Stuart Mill (of his own free will ...😀)

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

and you're sort of starting to delineate where I sit in life.

Obviously no one on mn voted for Johnson, however given numbers there’s a fair few ‘Tory scum’ out there

Luckily I’d say given the friends of Hamas alternative. What a bullet dodge that was.

I can’t say I feel bad about any vote - a mix of parties and remain, so I don’t always get what I want. That’s life in a democracy

The left scare me more. Antisemitism seems to be allowed. Shutting other people down, with Tory scum if you don’t think Starmer is the second coming. That means you must be Tory scum. Told to fuck off and leave when you begrudge paying 70% marginals. I’d love to know how the left think it’s all being paid for.

You are right though op and it’s a nuance our electorate don’t understand. Our Tory party are not right wing. They’ve raised basic tax tax threshold, kept the rate low, the majority don’t pay tax and the higher earners are paying record breaking tax. Literally the opposite of a right wing manifesto.

I think the left may come across as “unpleasant” to some of you because they have more reason to be angry right now. We’ve had years of right wing politics, forcing so many communities into far worse positions than they need to be. I think it’s quite understandable that people get their back up when those on the right defend the very acts that the government have imposed on particular communities, simply because these policies don’t impact them (or at least, in the same way they will impact others).