Increase in culture of envy

[BrighteyesBonnie]

AIBU to think that the culture of envy has increased significantly in the UK (if Mumsnet is anything to go by)?

For example, a thread by a lawyer asking whether their current salary is fair given their qualifications and years of experience contained a lot of responses angry that the OP is earning more than them and also ridiculing the OP for wanting a better salary.

Another example are threads on private schools, where there is a strong undercurrent of anger at those who are sending or want to send their children to private schools. Privately educated people are viewed with harsh lenses and often insulted.

Ambition and doing well do not appear to be appreciated if you’re doing better than the average.

Perhaps you could provide a list of things we should all acknowledge before posting about anything then.

and those people can click out of the thread they can see isn’t about them, rather than demanding it become about them. As if ‘why are you talking about you and making no mention of ME?’ isn’t in itself tone deaf.

Well despite the comments the votes at the moment are 61% in favour of YANBU.

Exactly this.
Lots of people area struggling. This has increasingly been a problem over the last 13 years and has increased dramatically recently. Huge inequality is a huge problem and that is why people are get angry and upset when well off people complain about their (relatively minor) problems. We need to look at the root of the problem.

@BlockStreet please read my posts more carefully. I have not said that people can have more lucrative careers when coming from a poorer background. I actually said, several pages ago, that in those instances I absolutely admire it. Absolutely. I admire my immigrant husband for what he’s achieved in a country that refused to recognise his qualifications and started from scratch - again - at age 30.

My point has been that, whilst there are people who have ‘worked hard’ (hate the phrase, I watch people in so many low paid jobs who work their asses off). Yes, some people have more drive, more determination and if THOSE people wish to point out their choices and sacrifices - fair play. That is 100% to be applauded.

But behind your massive efforts and sheer blood and guts, there are a huge group who are saying the same things - only they DIDN’T have to do those things you did, they didn’t have to work through Sixth Form, through Uni, delay learning to drive because it, and the car etc couldn’t be afforded. They didn’t ‘work hard’. Someone, somewhere in their lineage did, or even their husband’s family, but so many doors just didn’t even exist for them, and didn’t need to be opened. Then we’re talking accident of birth, or marriage (marrying specifically for money….hmmmm…does that count as choices?).

Being born into a comfortable family who can afford to fund and financially support you to a more high-earning job should not give you the right to look down on those who aren’t in those careers, and pat yourself on the back at your ‘hard work’.

A degree is hard work, I’m sure those of you who have come from nothing and have had to earn, beg, borrow and hopefully not steal would agree you worked harder overall than peers with family funding? And that doing coursework etc on little sleep and physically knackered was more testing? You are not the same as those people. You are more.

I haven’t mentioned the whole SAHM/benefits thing because I think it’s a little disingenuous to immediately point at the opposite end of the spectrum.

My disagreement with the ‘but we worked hard’ centres very much around ANYONE who is working bloody hard. Me and DH are in the police. Ignoring the whole Austerity/Public services arguments which will just derail the thread - I know DH and I work really hard. Really hard. As do the majority of us. We’re considered to be fairly ok pay wise by the general public, we were actually, before the pay freezes, the pension raids and this hideous carnage cost of living crisis.

Now we have food banks at our main 2 stations. For officers and staff.

That is fucked up. That should not be a thing for anyone is a developed country, let alone people in a supposedly professional job, with lots of exams and training.

I don’t envy the rich. I hate people who claim, completely disregarding the leg up they’ve had, that ‘they worked hard’. That is frankly insulting.

"A country cannot tax its way into prosperity. If you want the UK to adopt an approach that penalises those who dare to be financially successful, then you will have a country that will be much poorer overall. One whose place amongst the most developed nations will be severely undermined.

Like Brexit, people pointed fingers at a whole range of “others” as the root of their discontent. Now look where we are. Most people are worse off for it."

What about high tax economies that have a really high standard of living and less inequality overall - norway, sweden, finland, denmark etc etc great models that work this way!

This is prevalent on mn nowadays. I don’t see a way out for this country in all honesty. The often lauded tax systems of other countries are high tax across the board. This means that high earners wouldn’t see much of a difference over here - they already pay high comparative tax. It would be the middle and lower earners. In these tax systems - everyone pays higher taxes and they don’t have an ageing population where nearly 50% of adults pay 0 into the system.

The reasons behind this are complex. For example, tax credits have baked in a low wage society where employers are subsides by the tax payer. Nowadays, even middle earners are net takers as they aren’t paying enough to cover their costs. It would be middle and lower earners (plus those who don’t) who would need to pay more to make the systems comparable.

People just seem to think that there is a never ending pot. It’s not true, the majority of people in this country are supported by an ever dwindling pot of higher earners on PAYE. Yet these people are leaving and going else where (have you seen the countries productivity). What happens when they are gone or stop working as much to avoid cliff edges? Are the actual asset rich sat on millions/billions going to pay? Of course not.

The country is becoming poorer because it already has significant taxes on higher earners and they are a decreasing base supporting everyone else which is an increasing take base.

Exactly. I bet if we had a Finnish tax system here, those calling for it would not like it because they would see their tax rate increase. Those already paying high taxes would not see much of a difference.

As posted upthread;
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how-do-uk-tax-revenues-compare-internationally

It's our middle earners who are underpaying compared to other countries. Not the higher earners.

100% if people look deeper they’d see. The expectations is that EVERYONE contributes fairly. It would mean higher earners actually taxed about the same as they are pretty much comparable now. What would increase is that middle/lower earners would be expected to pay more and they’d have to stop nearly 50% of the population paying £0.

There's a very handy graph in the report above showing that on UK median earnings the UK tax rate is the lowest, at just under 30%.
The heroically hailed 'Nordic countries' Sweden and Finland are at least 10% higher.

These places also have much maligned (in the UK) practices like charging for GP appointments and healthcare public/private partnerships.

In the UK any attempt to introduce paying is shouted down with 'but it should be FREE', 'we don't want to be like the U.S' etc etc.

Exactly because the country has adopted a culture of envy. Yes, @ToWhitToWhoo a culture of envy.

Anger at “others” for having what they don’t have. You must preface everything you say by acknowledging your “privilege”. And you must absolutely not say you have worked hard for anything you have.

The country is definitely getting poorer. Lower productivity and lots of people being net takers rather than being net contributors.

I won’t stick around if being successful in this country means I’ll be punished and made to feel bad about my success.

We will end up with a Nordic system and people won’t like it. For example if you have a child…a pay rise which tips you into 100k can make you worse off as there is an effective tax of over 100%. Loss of childcare, personal allowance etc.

The under payers in our system are the middle earners and down. Higher earners are already taxed at the pretty much universal “make or break” level where people will just stop working more. Things would not change for them. They’d continue to make higher contributions than everyone else.

A smaller and smaller group of people on a high wage via PAYE can’t keep funding everyone as they are. They aren’t the “rich” as is often stated.

The NHS is already moving to a semi hybrid model as is education now because many state schools can’t staff themselves. The tax system here has relied on higher rate tax payers paying over the odds for too long and it is backfiring.

Middle (less so the lowest) earners may be hit more with tax/social insurance in higher-tax economies, but because they're benefiting from better public services and not having to pump so much of their money into (for example) ridiculously expensive childcare or private dental treatment for their children, it feels fairer and is less existential for these groups of people.

The UK could, for example, work its way out of this dilemma by setting out a clear plan for moving towards a more equitable, better funded society and increasing tax rates very gradually, for the higher earners first - and by introducing a statutory social insurance system (which is NOT the same thing as private insurance) with contributions based on a percentage of income.

And such a statutory social insurance system would also not be the same thing as NI - there would be specific amounts devoted to pension, healthcare, social care, unemployment etc.

BrighteyesBonnie · Yesterday 23:20
NeverDropYourMooncup · Yesterday 23:15

I think you're confusing concepts here. What you're calling 'envy' is actually 'nobody cares'.
Show quote history
Nobody cares? Hmmm, interesting concept.

yes, because in the end of days we all pay our bills and eat our own food and the fact someone envies means absolutely nothing - noone really cares.

Why? Higher earners already have a huge tax burden which is comparable to these other economies. Why would you increase taxes even further? There comes a point which increasing taxes becomes counter productive. Higher earners are close to that already. Why encourage a brain drain by pulling in a similar system but making the tax uncomfortably high compared to similar systems?

There's an increase in perpetuating the myth that rich people deserve their riches and privilege, even if they've simply inherited them, because everyone else just didn't try hard enough.

Again (and this is my parting thought as I'm off to bed), it comes down to what kind of society people want to live in. There's no majority for these ideas among high earners in the UK, that's clear enough from these posts, if they're representative. (It's interesting, though, that people seem to be reading 'increase taxes' as 'take away 100% of everyone's hard-earned money'). I know what kind of society I want to live in, and I'm proud to pay my taxes and contributions. Perhaps that makes me unambitious.

I don’t know what you’re talking about.

You’ve missed the point though. Our tax system is such that higher earners can end up paying 60, 70 or over 100% effective tax. You can’t say you want a Nordic style system by increasing taxes on higher earners. They already pay way and above and under that kind of system would not see much of a difference. The comparable figures are on this thread. The cold hard fact is that it’s not the higher earners who need to pay more under that system.

"How very dare people be angry and resentful about children being subject to serious and growing inequality of educational opportunity".
😤

How dare low and middle income earners complain about inequality when they are not paying enough for the public services they are utilizing.

Thats the part you missed.

And until they start paying in more, they are going to keep getting poorer because the higher earners will jump ship to another country (primarily because many higher income households have multiple passports - Canada, US, and EU included).

The issue I have with this that people seem to be wanting others to go down to shite state educational rather than arguing the state education should go up as close as it can to private one.
Imho it's very smart deaign that made it that people are angry at the better rather thanbeing angry at those making what should be a standard and solid one.
It's with everything.
Poor housing? Nothing to do with policies, all to do with all them immigrants getting free housing (we don't 🙄).
Can't get gp appointment? Nothing to do with policies. It's all to do with them immigramts taking all the gp time (we don't 🙄).
Now this is the same. Shite education? Nothing to do with policies. It's all the rich and private education.

Throughout history the reigning elite came up with distractions. The gladiator games, entertain them so they forget about what you do to them. Medieval peasants having more days off then us to celebrate festivals, to keep them happy. "Master gave Dobby a day off, Dobby is happy" The Church to make people fear something. They are literally designed to awe and scare. Every gen has folk devils designed by reigning elite. Not so long ago all evil in society were single mothers. Now you have "the rich" which basically seems to be everyone just above average wage.... While people argue about "Well you and your priviledge" they forget to argue "What about our underpriviledge, what are you doing about that big bosses in no10"

Its become largely pointless to work even harder for a promotion and extra pay when taxes vaporise 60% of your additional income.

Thats me right now, and I am now planning to move abroad to join DH and DD3 as I am not going to kill myself working extra hours so I can subsidise the ever mushrooming amount of people in the UK who seem to think they are owed a living by the higher earning PAYE folks.

I don't see this ending well for the UK. Its increasingly looking that this will be managed decline and then a car crash before anything changes.