Increase in culture of envy

[BrighteyesBonnie]

AIBU to think that the culture of envy has increased significantly in the UK (if Mumsnet is anything to go by)?

For example, a thread by a lawyer asking whether their current salary is fair given their qualifications and years of experience contained a lot of responses angry that the OP is earning more than them and also ridiculing the OP for wanting a better salary.

Another example are threads on private schools, where there is a strong undercurrent of anger at those who are sending or want to send their children to private schools. Privately educated people are viewed with harsh lenses and often insulted.

Ambition and doing well do not appear to be appreciated if you’re doing better than the average.

I don't see that. And relatively few working people are doing jobs that are actively/unequivocally bad for society. However, the idea of 'doing well' as synonymous with 'earning a big salary' is a very reductive/narrow one that does lead to people in immensely socially useful jobs being thought of as 'unambitious' and does its part in perpetuating the lack of adequate financial reward for such jobs.

I don't think you understand what I said. I'm not sure who is expressing angst (as you call it) to others but it's not me. It's the fact that SOME people appear to believe that "doing well" and having "ambition" is only evident if it results in a highly paid job. Not when it's aimed at being altruistic or highly skilled, for example. It's so depressing to think that a young person can only be described as having 'done well' if they have amassed all the middle class aspirational signals, honestly it's embarrassing.

@BrighteyesBonnie well, my DC isn't likely to earn the sort of salaries that will place them in the higher tax brackets - research work doesn't pay all that well. But if by some chance they do end up in that tax bracket then absolutely they and I will be happy to pay those higher taxes to support those who do important work but earn less. My point is that 'doing well' does not just mean 'earning pots of money'.

It's capitalism. There will be haves and have-nots. It's ok to be angry at a very unjust division of resources. But of course the 'haves' will try to dismiss it as envy.

But they will be doing better than some. So why should they only face an increase in tax when you decide they are earning pots of money? To some, your children will be earning pots of money.

I have lots of friends who have been 'ambitious' and 'done well' and I am not envious.

However, it makes me angry when people talk about their wealth as 'deserved' and say stuff like "we worked hard for our money".

It is self-entitled nonsense.

@BrighteyesBonnie I am not sure what you're getting at. The UK has a banded tax system. My DC (and I) are happy to pay what we are obliged to pay based on where our earnings place us band-wise. For both of us, based on choice of career, that's likely to be basic rate. If either or both of us are fortunate enough to land a job that places us in the next band up, we won't complain at having to pay more. Right now my DC is a student, I'm employed and not entitled to UC (nor do I want to be). So my taxes will in part go to people who earn less than I do and are entitled to UC. I am very happy for this to be the case. The same will apply to DC when they start work.

However, there are plenty of people on MN and in the right wing press who are not happy to pay tax and for their taxes to go to people who have less than they do. Why don't you attack them rather than complain to me?

I find this quite odd and see it a lot on here. If someone earns well they are not allowed to say they work hard for it.

if someone says to be they work hard for it, I believe them and empathise, It doesn’t matter how much they earn, I don’t see it as a reflection on me , or what I earn, simply a statement of fact

deserved is something different entirely, and I could see why that would irritate, but not they worked hard for it. Many of us who work, work hard, it’s not exclusive to those on low pay and it’s completely acceptable for someone to say they knocked their pan in for it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Because it was made clear to you that you are not entitled to anything and have to work for it - 10 times as hard and that ambition to do better isn’t something to be embarrassed about. Certainly, it wasn’t the vibes or culture that it is somehow wrong to do better than others. However, you’ll now be called privileged and entitled.

Don't go on those threads then - they're obviously not for state school parents!!

Maybe Mumsnet needs to let everyone know this forum is only for poor people.

What 'we worked hard for it', in this type of context, generally means is 'therefore it's fine that we have so very much more than other people'. The implication is that others have not 'worked hard', plus there is a lack of awareness of privilege/lucky breaks. I don't doubt that many people who have high earnings do work hard. We are paid reasonably (not particularly impressively in MN terms!) and we 'work hard' for it, as working hard goes. That doesn't mean I'm under any illusion of a linear correlation between earnings and hard work.

'We've worked hard and we are also fortunate' would be more acceptable (and honest).

I can't speak for anyone else, but what annoys me about the private school threads is the talk of 'making sacrifices' and 'valuing education'. Two of mine are in fee-paying schools (very, very different kettle of fish from in the UK - fees much lower and income-linked) and I'm sure we could go on a lovely extra holiday a year/save more/whatever with the money we pay for them, but I wouldn't presume to talk about 'sacrifices' or claim I 'valued education' more than someone who spends that money elsewhere, even though I might even have more legitimacy in so doing, given that someone on a very low income might pay 20 euro a month or nothing at all. It's the 'poor us' narrative that grates, and the idea of moral superiority to those who aren't making these 'sacrifices' (because they can't afford to).

I just don’t see this, I don’t refer it back to myself. My friends and family cover a wide range of incomes. They all work hard for it. I don’t feel they need to say “and am fortunate” to in some way excuse they earn more or make me feel better about it.

But they probably have worked hard.

the fact that other people also work hard but make less doesn’t mean a higher earner hasn’t also worked hard. The difference is they’ve worked hard in a career field that pays well (and worked hard to obtain the qualifications and skills that enabled them to).

It's not about making anyone feel better individually, though. No problem at all, personally, with someone getting (say) a huge bonus and saying 'I've worked hard for this, I'm going to enjoy spending it'. It's where it fails to translate into an awareness of systemic inequality that it becomes a problem.

That’s quite a political view to take on a friend or family member, someone you care for, or love, saying they worked hard for their money.

they likely did work hard for their money, it doesn’t diminish or reflect on how hard someone else worked or what they earn, just because you earn more doesn’t mean you need to pretend it’s not down to hard work.

it’s fine to say it if it’s the truth.

Context, innit?

Not sure how we got onto friends/family members, but seeing as we have - a happy 'I've worked hard and I'm really enjoying this new house/Porsche/pool/early retirement/whatever' is one thing, a defensive 'I've worked hard and I begrudge what I pay in taxes/don't think those unambitious oiks should be getting pay rises' is another. (Hyperbole alert!).

(FWIW, I have some pretty wealthy friends and they don't need to explicitly say they're fortunate, they know it and I know they know it)

Wrong again.
The pay for 'highly paid' corporate jobs come from profit - you get paid based on the monetary value you generate. Money to money. Easy conversion.
The pay for 'socially useful' jobs has no monetary conversion - it's subjective based on what the government is willing to give as so many are socialised.
Private nurses, doctors, nannies, private tutors etc all earn a lot more than their 'public' counterparts.
So clearly, people 'do' value them.

Exactly. And life choices have an impact. It’s very wrong to tell someone if they earn above average they must say it’s due to good fortune. When actually that person could have over come many hurdles to achieve.

where do you stop. Do,you tell kids in school,they can’t say their A grade is due to hard work, what about the kid who excels at sport. Telling folks who achieve something you haven’t they need to say it’s fortune, is nonsense.

if you worked hard and achieved. Then good for hou, drive, determination, ambition, can and do all account for success and not just “good fortune”

Of course it’s about making people feel better. The people that for whatever reason think every mention of wealth needs to be balanced with a nod to inequality, as if their own sensibilities are so very important that all must pay tribute to them. You aren’t entitled to demand that other people speak in a way that you personally sanction, and it’s arrogant in the extreme to think others must centre at all times you/the issues you consider important.

Such a statement doesn’t need to be made in every conversation in which someone acknowledges their wealth, in the same way someone on a low income in the UK isn’t required to throw a bone and reference the poor in Sudan when complaining about an energy bill.

I don’t know anyone who says this in real life. And yes for many people it was a weird thing, the harder they worked, the more fortunate they got…

People are reading a lot into/being very literal about my posts.

'if you worked hard and achieved. Then good for hou, drive, determination, ambition, can and do all account for success and not just “good fortune”' - again, the issue here is with the definition of 'achieving'.

And yes, jobs I'll call (as a shorthand) 'socially useful' often don't have a direct monetary conversion. Their value is more in the cost to society if they don't happen, and I'd argue that, if we think that not-happening to its logical conclusion, that value is immense.

But again, all that is related to the kind of society we want to be.

We're just returning the favour, though.
I think the whole point of this discussion is that, while everyone accepts that jobs are socially useful. Nobody has any idea as to how to pay for all these. Instead, they just turn on the 'better off''.

Take private school for example. What purpose does it serve to be angry at them? There are numerous posts about other forms of privilege such as tutoring and moving house for a school catchment. These are actively encouraged. Even when they are worse. Because at least private school parents pay for the 'privilege' of forcing the 'undesirables' out. Rather than pushing up house prices in the catchment,

If people really wanted to improve things, there are plenty of more productive things they could be doing rather than lashing out at anything that moves.

This is the same mentality that led to Brexit. Don't blame the government. Blame 'immigrants'.

At this rate things will never improve. They (the government and super rich) have won. They have managed to turn us against each other and have us squabble for scraps, while they get richer and richer.

I'd have a few ideas about how to pay for socially useful jobs, but I'm guessing I'd be accused of communism again