To think even Labour know we can’t afford everything the public want?

[Coffeeandbourbons]

Off the back of another thread, Labour have dropped their pledge to make tuition fees free.

I read a lot on here (and hear a lot IRL) that this country is very wealthy and that we could afford everything the public want (excellent and efficient public services, lots of things subsidised or free such as prescriptions and childcare, a generous benefits system) if we just tax the rich enough. However our economy simply isn’t growing and we’re heavily in debt.

AIBU to think we’re actually up the shitter, can’t afford what we think we can and even Labour knows this, hence the broken pledges?

Interested to hear from economics-savvy Mumsnetters as I’m a bit rubbish with the numbers…

@Hell121 if you believe that life will be worse under labour then why not vote conservative instead of spoiling your ballot.

What value is there to telling someone not to vote? I wouldn't spoil my ballot but if the only engagement that someone will entertain in an election is to do that, then that is what they should do. Voter apathy makes for lazy politics, I wouldn't let my lack of approval for any one party to be mistaken for tacit approval of the state of things.

I'm not really into politics too much. I will be voting though.

I was told by someone a few years back that the reason the country is in so much debt is due to the labours work between 1997-2010. I was told that the conservatives were trying to make cuts to repay the massive debt that was left behind.

I was told this by a lib dem, no idea if it's actually the case so always taken it with a pinch of salt.

I honestly think any party in power will be doomed unfortunately. Especially following Brexit and COVID - gotta be optimistic though...😞

What no one is saying is that we're paying for two major things now that fucked up the economy - Brexit and the pandemic. According to Bloomberg, Brexit is costing the UK £100 billion per year in lost output. As for the pandemic, the UK govt's own estimates are that it cost between £310-410 billion. We are in a financial black hole that we aren't coming out of any time soon. Changing from a Conservative to a Labour government isn't going to change that.

But actually, that tax evasion is on a very small scale isn't it? It's the tax evasion carried out by big companies that causes the problem.

For smaller companies, the easiest way for the country to deal with is to make us a cashless society.

Well if the Tories are making cuts to repay national debt they are doing a terrible job of it! That was even before the pandemic.

I think you've been told a load of cobblers by a politicians who wants to steal your vote off Labour. You were right to treat it with a pinch of salt.

I do think that governments who are on watch over crisis events get punished, but the reality is the Tories have made a lot of poor economic decisions that have meant that our country has been placed in a poor position to weather the storm. Austerity was never going to create the growth needed to recover from the 2008 financial crash and just create a huge productivity problem, brexit was a massive self-inflicted wound - these things were deliberate Tory policy not circumstance.

Your first paragraph is you projecting your own narrative onto what I wrote. That wasn't what I was saying at all. As you say, the narrative you invented is bollocks - so we agree there.

Why?

We couldn't create a cashless society if we wanted to. We could deal with tax evasion more effectively, but it would need investment in government workers - which always seems an unpopular choice in the UK.

that note was a joke that spectacularly backfired and was twisted to provide a business case for austerity

If the note was a joke, why did Liam Byrne's immediate boss admit that Labour's planned cuts in public spending would be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher

I’ll be voting labour at the next election simply because I think the tories have done a terrible job and labour might do a ‘less worse’ one.

But I can’t help but feel if they get in a lot of people will be very disappointed a few years down the line.

If it was as simple as ‘tax the corporations then we can pay for everything’ why aren’t they promising that?

Because tax is a competitive factor for people and companies and they can choose where to set up

It’s not only factor of course as there are many very low tax options out there, I think we’re around the middle as rates go

I’m not sure funding will even increase in some cases, education funding promised is already lower than now

That's why I will be voting conservative. I think the problems that we are facing right now are not the fault of the government and I don't think our problems will go away just because labour win a single election.

Brexit is not the fault of the Toru Govt. ...okaaaay!

🙄

That's why I will be voting conservative. I think the problems that we are facing right now are not the fault of the government and I don't think our problems will go away just because labour win a single election.

Both the fact that we exited the EU and the way in which we exited the EU were directly caused by the government. The former because they initiated a referendum (and chose the threshold for the vote), the latter because it was open to them to pursue other types of relationship with the EU.

I’m not saying that Labour would have somehow achieved a successful Brexit, but we categorically would not have had to had Labour been in power.

https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1052447992387706882?lang=en

The Tories have won several elections and made things worse each time.

No it was the will of the people.

I disagree. I don't think things are as bad as when labour were last in government.

What has got better?

I can only assume you’re incredibly rich.

The pensions lifetime allowance has been removed. People will get 30 hours of free childcare for their kids from the age of 18 months. Most people are richer now because of property price appreciation.

The pension lifetime allowance being lifted only benefits the richest in society and denies revenue to HMRC. It was announced in March 2023 and has yet to yield any benefits.

30hours free childcare is pie in the sky given the sector has a severe staffing crisis. It was announced in March 2023, without any planning to deal with the staffing crisis. It has yet to happen, nevermind yielded any benefits for UK society.

Property price appreciation happens with time. We have a housing crisis in this country with many of the current generation struggling to get on the property ladder at all. Great for landlords with multiple properties, shit for everyone else.

Do you have anything that has actually improved in the UK?

Far from great? They've wrecked the country. And who would be PM if the Conservatives win?

Vote Cameron, get May.

Vote May get Johnson.
Vote Johnson, get Truss.
Then Sunak.

One of the ways the Tories have been disastrous is their shambolic incompetence to run their own party and the instability it's caused.

Student "loans" are badly misunderstood at the macro-economic level by so many people.

Each year (in England) about £20bn is advanced in "loans" to students. This is government spending, just as it would be if "loans" were scrapped and replaced with grants (to students and/or to universities directly). About £10bn of this will eventually be written off ie. never repaid to the government, so it is very clearly government spending. This effectively means that higher education is half funded by the government and half by former students. The idea that higher education should be paid for by taxing the rich actually describes the current situation - it is only "rich" former students (and their parents) who will fully pay back their "loans". Less well off former students will make a partial contribution, and the poorest will be fully government funded.

Starmer abandoning his pledge to abolish tuition fees actually shows that he (or more likely an advisor that he has listened to) has a fuller grasp of the economics and is adopting a rational, pragmatic approach, even though the optics are bad. It makes a massive contrast with Miliband/Balls who wanted to reduce tuition fees to help poorer students, and were totally embarrassed and humiliated 10 years ago when countless people (including the NUS, Martin Lewis etc.) pointed out it would make absolutely no difference to the poorest 50% of students but would be a big saving for the richest former students.

Incidentally, the scale of government funding for higher education can be seen by the total student outstanding debt. In 2011 it was approx £35bn, by 2022 it had reached £182bn, and it is expected to reach £450bn by 2045.