To think even Labour know we can’t afford everything the public want?

[Coffeeandbourbons]

Off the back of another thread, Labour have dropped their pledge to make tuition fees free.

I read a lot on here (and hear a lot IRL) that this country is very wealthy and that we could afford everything the public want (excellent and efficient public services, lots of things subsidised or free such as prescriptions and childcare, a generous benefits system) if we just tax the rich enough. However our economy simply isn’t growing and we’re heavily in debt.

AIBU to think we’re actually up the shitter, can’t afford what we think we can and even Labour knows this, hence the broken pledges?

Interested to hear from economics-savvy Mumsnetters as I’m a bit rubbish with the numbers…

Brexit is just making us poor. It was the only trade deal in history to put MORE barriers to cost us, the British, more money to trade with the rest of the world.

The people who voted for it are idiots. A vote to be poorer.

I think it would be nice if politicians start actually properly costing things. The uk has GDP to debt ratio of 100%. It’s a fallacy to think of the Uk as a rich country. Also GDP per capita is probably a better indicator than overall wealth.

There isn’t the money for expanding social spending significantly not if you want to hold onto that AA credit rating (which used to be AAA). Any additional revenue needs to be poured into reducing structural deficits before borrowing gets more expensive. We aren’t in a closed system, we rely on the UK looking like a decent bet to be able to borrow at a reasonable rate.

We need growth quite desperately and I don’t see how anyone is planning to do that.

If your theory about Starmer stepping down soon after winning is correct, we will end up with the likes of Angela Rayner as PM. Whilst this government has been far from great, that alternative sounds worse.

There aren't any votes in that - so don't expect it.

The politicians will run the debt and the deficits as far as they can until savers/buyers of government debt say "no". Then you will see things go sideways very quickly - ie instantly.

The west is in a state of managed decline. This is why you see politicians failing to come up with decent plans while running things down. There is no greater prosperity and abundance to come. We've had it, got greedy and entitled and swapped our factories for non-jobs and benefits. Everyone wants to push paper around an office rather than actually do something. When the council is paying over £100k for various non-jobs, why wouldn't you?

At some point (it's started) countries with commodities and energy will ask the UK and US - "I don't want government bonds. I want something real. What do you have?" What do we have? Do you think Saudi Arabia wants to pay X barrels of oil for various council officials to debate "half caste" vs "mixed race" vs "dual heritage" as Mumsnet was doing earlier? I don't think they will.

I know people on here will say "Well, I'm entitled to this and that and the other, because I live in the UK". Fact is, you're not. I think people are going to find that out the hard way over the coming years.

We rely on foreign investment. But since Brexit, the country has the flakiest, crappiest politicians of my lifetime. And that matters to all of us. We need to look stable.

The UK no longer looks solid. It looks mad, and that is because of Brexit. Give it a decade a lot of hard work and we might not fall behind much further.

If your theory about Starmer stepping down soon after winning is correct, we will end up with the likes of Angela Rayner as PM. Whilst this government has been far from great, that alternative sounds worse

I so agree with this. She is dreadful.

I think analogies can be helpful when talking about concepts some people don’t understand. I wonder how much people really know about economic terms like trickle down, endogenous/exogenous models etc.

So the bees analogy was a way to reflect that and the fact you wouldn’t put a bumblebee in as a leader of honey bees is precisely apt isn’t it?!! 😂

Yes, well capitalism isn't working so well for us, and manufacturing in the UK has been decimated in favour of playing the financial markets. So maybe we need to talk about what kind of society we want to live in? Do we need to worship oil/growth? How could we redistribute what we have more equally? Do we need all of the consumer goods we have come to expect? What is it all for anyway, if not to aspire to a fair and equitable society where the majority of people are able to benefit from the wealth they create and , maybe even have the opportunity discuss how to address each other with respect?

And that is why I said earlier that the UK could lead the way on green energy tech.

A growth economy relies on consumerism which in itself is hugely problematic for the earth. Being independent of oil producing nations is essential. The UK has a long history of innovation in science, engineering and precision manufacturing. We also have some (albeit small) natural resources but a ton of green energy potential across tidal, solar, wind, hydrogen etc.

GDP to debt ratio of 100%. OK. But can someone clever explain, so what? Japan is currently at 200%. France and Italy both over 100%. All G7.

This post is interesting but confusing. Can you explain government bonds to me please and what the race debate has to do with that?

Does it matter when they don't even know what a woman is.

@Coffeeandbourbons I'm sure you can google the answers to your questions re the amount of £££ wasted, squandered and due to Tory corruption on your own.

Whatever party comes next will have to deal with the destruction of our economy, society and democracy wreaked by 13 years of the shambolic, chaotic, corrupt Tory government. It's going to be hard. Really hard. But we will have to find a way.

The Cuntservatives aren't it.

Exactly. How can you trust the party that ceded women's rights to men for so many years?

The Trans shitshow is Tory made. FFS they don't know what a woman is. They've never given a shit about women and children. All they care about is how they can monetise stuff.

It's the Tory way.

We need a better system than capitalism and to stop the quest for infinite economic growth. We're not going to get that of course.

Apart from that right wing govts always want to save money, cut spending, cut taxes etc but these policies alway end up costing more. They never understand that a stitch in time saves nine.

Plan and build affordable housing and you don't end up spending a fortune putting up homeless people in hotels for months.

The tories made loads of tax collectors redundant. That tax collector might cost £30k a year but collect a million a year.

Save some money by ignoring advice to stockpile ppe. Oh, wait, what? A pandemic?

Shame starmers as big a cunt as the tories.

I think the poster is trying to say that the reason we are poor is because of ‘woke’ and the workers of today are lazy which is all bollocks of course. We still manufacture a huge amount of stuff and it’s every Britain’s right to be treated with dignity as respect. Doing that makes us richer.

We are becoming poorer because productivity is low. This is due to poor leadership, poor investment, a wrecked trading environment and a poorly educated workforce. However, blaming ‘woke’ and punching down is easier I guess.

Is he?

When the tories came into power they were left a note “ there is no money. “
Bit like the Seasick Steve song.
“I started out with nothing and I’ve still got most of it left. “

@Riapia - that note was a joke that spectacularly backfired and was twisted to provide a business case for austerity, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/09/labour-liam-byrne-apologises-no-money-left-note-general-election

Well said.

Christ just don't bother voting if you're going to spoil it.
Nobody is forcing you to go and vote.

Spoiling your ballot sends a specific message and is entirely different from not bothering.

It doesn’t send a message. The counters are just going to chuck them away. They only care about the valid ones.

What a childish thing to do. Drawing pictures or writing stupid etc, it is something that a 5 year old would do.

Just don't bother if that is your motto. 🤷‍♀️