To think even Labour know we can’t afford everything the public want?

[Coffeeandbourbons]

Off the back of another thread, Labour have dropped their pledge to make tuition fees free.

I read a lot on here (and hear a lot IRL) that this country is very wealthy and that we could afford everything the public want (excellent and efficient public services, lots of things subsidised or free such as prescriptions and childcare, a generous benefits system) if we just tax the rich enough. However our economy simply isn’t growing and we’re heavily in debt.

AIBU to think we’re actually up the shitter, can’t afford what we think we can and even Labour knows this, hence the broken pledges?

Interested to hear from economics-savvy Mumsnetters as I’m a bit rubbish with the numbers…

How much do you think it would cost? 40 billion enough?

Because that's about how much unpaid tax there is in this country... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/unpaid-taxes-rose-5billion-nadhim-29056276

By the way, part of the reason the economy didn't grow last quarter is because of the teacher strikes.

So actually coming to an agreement with striking workers would help the economy.

I have never voted tory but it does annoy me when in any political TV discussion or interview they criticise and say it would be different but refuse to explain what they would do and how they would achieve it - all very vague. I want to know what their plan is, that they have a viable plan at least.

Have you not noticed that things have changed ever so slightly since 2020 when these pledges were made. It would be truly stupid to carry on with exactly the same policies given the Truss / Kwarteng shaped hand grenade that got lobbed into our economy last year.

I once sat in a meeting with with an opposition party and some tax professionals. The question was asked, what are you going to do to address tax evasion that HMRC is not currently doing?

Absolutely no response. Nada. Nothing. It’s easy to say that the tax gap is £xbn, but actually collecting that tax - detecting the painter and decorator who takes cash in hand, the cafe that don’t declare their takings, the person who claims non-Dom status on a dubious basis - is nearly impossible.

Apparently the retraction of charitable status from public schools will pay for everything, like the magic porridge pot.

Labour do at least think decent public services contribute to a decent society and help make the country a better place to live.
The Tories want it all privatised and see no benefit in social provision unless someone is making a profit.

Kier Starmers labour are realists. That was a piece in sky Corbyn pipe dream. They know the country can't uses taxation to fund tuition fees for 50% of kids to go to university. They will focus the limited financial wasteland left by the Tories on things like health and social care, crime prevention and school age education.

The tories have made a terrible mess of the economy. They squandered huge amounts on carrying out Brexit, which is now costing the country a million £ an hour of lost tax revenue. So well worth all that expense. 😒Of course if Labour get in they will be blamed for not being able to afford things as a result of the terrible mess the tories have made. The tories have basically pillaged the country to line their own pockets and Labour can't wave a magic wand and turn the clock back to before that happened.

The tories decided, post 2008 crash, to cut the public sector back hard and save money that way. It was a gigantic experiment - if it had worked our economy would have flourished and out debt would have gone down. It failed. It left us poorer, iller and less resilient.

We can't afford not to invest in ourselves.

Great to have it broken down in a clear and concise way

But would strategy from 1930s USA work now?

Where is the money? That’s my question - everyone says it is, but where is it?

Well there is no denying the very wealthy people got much more wealthy during the pandemic thanks to crazy QE. There was no trickle down there. We are taking the pain for that. Asset prices are massively inflated, so out of reach for the average person.

The Tories have wasted so much money on people who were already wealthy and turned university education into a bit of a farce. Yes Labour started it, but they have made it far worse, really turned universities into a profit making machine while delivering very poor services.

It doesn't surprise me about Starmer. I think he is becoming very blue sadly. There is nothing that inspires me about him apart from being the least worst option out of the two. Lib Dems are virtually ghost like. Haven't even produced any plans for the local elections round here, so cant vote for them if they won't tell me what they plan to do.

Strategic shitness from all three parties I think.

So if Starmer promises to scrap tuition fees, what do you think he should do to pay for this?

The current university system is the most expensive in Western Europe. If the government spends money on some things it makes money. That's basically economics. Spending on public services for example makes money as those employees pay tax, spend money in the country which generates more tax, that money then gets spent again raising more tax. It's spending money on subsidies for foreign owned companies who take their profits out of the country that's the problem. That and allowing tax breaks for the rich who invest their money elsewhere.

It's only affordable if you are happy that a much smaller percentage of the population go to university, that many universities will need to close and are not bothered about UK universities conducting research.

Scotland is only just hanging onto this policy. It requires filling universities with international and rest of UK students to make up the shortfall but international figures cannot keep growing (as university finances this year will indicate). And that is with a tiny population.

Shortfall areas should be free or heavily discounted such as nursing, social work etc (particularly in the key public services where you are unlikely to ever take home a banker style bonus) but blanket free is impossible unless you want higher education to contract massively

This country is screwed because people vote Conservative and public services always end up cut to the bone under their watch.

Starmer can only do better than that. Real Tories go private. The rest just moan about the consequences when their kids are off school or the NHS is in bits. If you are that Conservative, you should have the money to insulate yourself. Otherwise you are an idiot if you depend on public services and vote Tory.

Ask Michelle Mone, Matt Hancock, Jennifer Arcuri(?), Sunak's family, and the rest of the Tory cronies who have done very well out of this Conservative government.

This is the sort of response I mean. Can you elaborate? Put figures on it? Prove that if it wasn’t for corruption and cronyism, there would be enough money for all of these things? I don’t doubt there has been a lot of shady cash changing hands, but is it of an amount that corruption alone is responsible for our underfunded services?

The Brexit divorce bill isnt cheap either. And we lost a lot of trade revenue because we crashed out without preparing for what would come next so the prospects aren't looking great.

And don't forget the amount we lost to Trusterfuck/Kamikwaze economics.

The Tories have recklessly and repeatedly fucked the UK economy. Whoever comes next is going to have to deal with that.

Michelle Mone:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/09/revealed-the-full-inside-story-of-the-michelle-mone-ppe-scandal

I'm not suggesting that we adopt the New Deal and do exactly the same now. I am suggesting that budget slashing austerity is not the only option.

There are alternative theories that make sense and which have worked in the past. Similar principles could work here.

It is surely better than continuing with the current mess which clearly isn't working.

The decision to underfund services is a political choice. One that is made by politicians because they believe either that there is too much money spent, or it should be more efficient or they pretend not to notice. It is choice. The UK is still a rich country and can afford a decent rise. It's just deciding not to pay it.

I went to a school in the 1990s in a recession where I was educated in a temporary hut with damp carpets and sharing a photocopy of a text book. That was the last time the Tory Party was in power. It's on them and they don't change.

The Truss budget.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/12/revealed-the-30bn-cost-of-liz-trusss-disastrous-mini-budget

If they’re offering free tuition fees I hope they’re going to forgive all outstanding student debt, otherwise it’s massively unfair. And I guarantee they’ll have a flood of people wanting to do free degrees and they won’t be able to afford it. Young people who can’t get jobs and otherwise wouldn’t go to uni but think they might as well if it’s free. Mid life career changers who couldn’t afford to pay for degrees but will do them if they’re free. Older people who want to study for fun but have no intention of working, and couldn’t afford to pay but will do it if it’s free.