To think that sex and gender are the same thing?

[StNinian]

I don't buy into the distinction many people make between the two terms nowadays. "Gender" was never a word used to describe how one feels/identifies behaves until recently. It has long been synonymous with "sex". Just curious to see if anyone else agrees with me.

I was learning about variety of gender expression jn ancient Rome when I was at uni .... and I graduated before the years started 20.

Did you fall under something heavy?

This

Seperate to this can anyone explain gender without using words like make-up, toy cars, dolls, climbing, dresses etc.

Simply, gender is what people think is stereotypical of sex. Caring, loving, nurturing, pretty vs strong, dominant, handsome. The issue is people can be caring, loving and strong and dominant. That's when people are described as (acting) feminine/masculine depending on their sex. When the truth is, it's all bullshit because nothing about your sex determines if someone will be caring, loving, strong, dominant etc.

It feels at times like this is "god's way" of telling us we have far too many people coming up with and debating pointless abstract constructs.

If gender is simply a sociological construct, is it all just meaningless solipsism? Why does anyone in the real world outside universities take any bloody notice of it?

I would love to zoom forward three centuries and see what they make of all this.

I thought I was a feminist but if we have inadvertently opened the door to all this nonsense then I regret that.

sexandgenderintro.com

You might find this a useful read op.

One of the most knowledgable people I know agrees with you, OP - says that until fairly recently (which could include the 1990s!), the two terms were synonymous. (My friend's 60 years old.)

Except when it's der Kater!

That's true . Ok how about die Maus?!

If gender is simply a sociological construct, is it all just meaningless solipsism?

Then we might as well use it as we used to in the past and as other languages still do - to describe someone's biological gender - male or female

I am a man named Simon. My gender expression is female and I like to wear dresses and lipstick

He is a male
His gender is male
He may or may not wish he was female
He may or may not “identify” as female gendered (although he cannot actually be female gendered)
He exhibits some traits more typical of, or associated with, biological females (in that society).

The whole problem has arisen from people accepting that gender is different to biological sex.

If you believe that sex and gender are two different things, can you name one situation in which someone's gender actually matters? Or any situation in which we need to distinguish between people on the basis of their gender?

The whole problem has arisen from people accepting that gender is different to biological sex

I cannot see any difference - you're either male or female. Simple.

Personally I’m a bit nostalgic for the days when ‘gender’ - at least in my head - was associated with the foreign language nouns I had to learn - M, F, N…

This is an accurate definition.

Male / Female is a basic biological mammalian definition of sex.
Gender is a social construct which as you correctly point out varies across cultures and how each individual feels / dresses / behaves.

However a feminine male is never going to be female and a masculine female is never going to be male.

The issue is lies with the definition of the words man and woman- do they refer to gender or sex?

sex is biology, what your DNS states. Gender is the characteristic society associates with that sex as others have said. So sex male/female, gender masculine/feminine.

I do have a hard time with the " there are 72 genders" or whatever number we are currently up to.

Its easier to see gender as a scale. You can have a very feminine biological male who lives their life entirely conforming to feminine traits, and wishes for society to see them as female, and vice versa. We are all on this scale to an extent. Im female, i identify as female fully, but i live my life in jeans vans and gaming hoodies with natural cut twice a year if its lucky hair, unkempt eyebrows and wouldn't know one end of a mascara to the other. I am less feminine that someone who live their life in heels and dresses with daily make up and weekly visits to a beauty therapist and hairdresser. Those traits are, within our society, as to what is feminine and what isnt. We dont have to stick a label on them though, just, as a society, accept that regardless of what a persons DNA states, they are free to conform to the ideals of feminine/masculine as much or as little as they chose.

Its really not complicated, or "woke", its just simple acceptance.

I'm going to really struggle to articulate what I think so bear with.

To me personally I use sex and gender interchangeably although I understand the difference. But I think 'identifying' as a particular gender just because you may like a specific colour or type of clothing is bullshit.

I'm biologically female but when I was younger I loved cars and refused to wear dresses until I was about 14. This does not mean I identified as male in gender, I didn't even think about that because it wasn't a trendy 'thing' at the time.

Why does gender have to be such a 'thing'??? Why can't people just like what they like and what does it have to do with being male or female, whether that's in sex or fucking gender? It's like me saying I'm Indian, but I prefer Hollywood to Hollywood therefore I must identify as Western. Fucks sake.

Sorry that should be Hollywood to Bollywood, bloody autocorrect

Its easier to see gender as a scale

No it's definitely not!

There are only 2 genders - masculine or feminine!

Why can't people just like what they like and what does it have to do with being male or female, whether that's in sex or fucking gender?

Exactly.

Male or Female. Simple.

No. Some females are more feminine that others, some males are more masculine than others. there isnt a definition of feminine/masculine that every one fits in. They are ideals created by a society as to what they are and people will conform to them to different levels. Therefore, its a scale.

Lazy -minded people will assume your baby is a boy, yes. I was with a friend whose new baby was wearing a stripey blue babygrow, a woman came over to coo and asked "what's his name"? Then looked angry at the response "her name is Alice" as it revealed her rigid stereotpyed thinking.

Woman and girls will lose our sex-based rights if we do not correct the word gender whenever it's wrongly used instead of sex.

Lazy -minded people will assume your baby is a boy, yes

Well, then those lazy minded people will make wrong judgments, that's THEIR problem.

It does not mean that we need to change any definitions of gender!

My dd wore a lot of her brother's baby clothes. She wore blue baby grows, she wore Spider-Man tops etc - I would never be angry if people had assumed she was a boy, I rather feel sorry for their narrow minded way of thinking.

No, they’re not the same. Sex is biological and cannot be altered. Gender is essentially femininity and masculinity and is a sliding scale.

No. If I stop shaving, cut my hair, wear trousers etc, I am still not male gendered, are you? I am exhibiting stereotypical male characteristics but my gender is still female.

I agree - until recently (eg until around 2006 which is recent relative to human history) gender was often used to mean sex - eg baby's gender. It also was used in gender roles - which very much related to sex based roles, it was a politer way of saying sex meaning bilogical sex.

In academic circles it was divorced and the rise of Queer studies which also saw a decline in women's studies in academia has accelerated that into society.

How can my female gender be altered? I'm a female, regardless of how I dress or act!