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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that sex and gender are the same thing?

319 replies

StNinian · 19/04/2023 20:01

I don't buy into the distinction many people make between the two terms nowadays. "Gender" was never a word used to describe how one feels/identifies behaves until recently. It has long been synonymous with "sex". Just curious to see if anyone else agrees with me.

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12
MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 21/04/2023 22:43

I don't remember being taught the difference between sex and gender in year 7 (1995-1996) either. I'm 99.9% certain that the reason I don't remember being taught it is because we weren't taught it.
Neither were my dc who were in year 7 between 2015-2018

maddening · 21/04/2023 22:56

Londongal123 · 21/04/2023 21:49

I can’t believe how many uneducated people are commenting. Did you not learn anything in school? They literally teach the difference between sex and gender in year 7 since the 1970s

You weren't in school in the 1970s? There was no year 7 then either. And having been in school in the 80s and 90s - no there was no focus on gender as in the manner that it is being sold today.

There were the beginnings of these coming out of universities in specific disciplines starting in the 70s and being much more formed in the 80s so no, academic theology was not taught in mainstream school particularly when it was at its infancy in Higher education at that point.

GarlicGrace · 21/04/2023 23:59

My school taught it in the 1970s. From First Year (age 11), when a foreign language was compulsory. You have to learn about gender for the language, where it's obviously not a sex marker.

As I recall, perhaps incorrectly, we had discussions about the social meaning of gender in Fifth Year (age 15). It wasn't a big thing but I discovered feminism the following year, and already understood the concept.

MargotBamborough · 22/04/2023 03:38

How did you understand the concept of gender back then, @GarlicGrace? Can you define it for us?

GarlicGrace · 22/04/2023 03:56

MargotBamborough · 22/04/2023 03:38

How did you understand the concept of gender back then, @GarlicGrace? Can you define it for us?

I can, yes. I've done several long posts including one in this thread.

GarlicGrace · 22/04/2023 03:59

MargotBamborough · 22/04/2023 03:38

How did you understand the concept of gender back then, @GarlicGrace? Can you define it for us?

OK, my two posts on here weren't very long. I saw that others had posted pretty much what I'd say. This self-quote might suffice: gender as sex-role stereotypes. You can fill in the details by RTFT!

Riverlee · 22/04/2023 07:30

@MargotBamborough

I was a teen during 80s. I recall gender equally biological sex, plus meaning boys wear blue, girls wear pink. Actually sex was used for this also - the two were used more interchangeably.

For languages, certain words were male or female, but which they were was quite random. Ie. Cows could be male and horses female. Seemed fairly random to me.

I don’t think I’d really heard of trans, in the modern sense, as such. There were transsexuals, who were men dressed as women, but everyone knew they were men who just liked to wear woman’s clothing. Then there were drag acts and pantomime dames, but these were more comical characters rather than the overtly sexualised characters you have today. Some sketch shows had men dressed as women - Kenny Everett, Benny Hill, etc .

Teens didn’t come out as gay as early as they did today - many not to university or even when their parents passed away. I think the average age then was twenties, whilst today is sixteen.

MargotBamborough · 22/04/2023 07:46

GarlicGrace · 22/04/2023 03:59

OK, my two posts on here weren't very long. I saw that others had posted pretty much what I'd say. This self-quote might suffice: gender as sex-role stereotypes. You can fill in the details by RTFT!

Apologies. Yes, I see. But I don't think what you were taught about gender is the same as what kids are being taught about gender now (essentially "sexed souls").

You seem to understand gender (outside the context of grammar) as a concept relating to the cultural norms and behaviours associated with a particular sex.

As opposed to "I was assigned male at birth but my gender is female because that is now I identify."

Other than grammatically, do you think people have their own personal gender?

GarlicGrace · 22/04/2023 07:58

You're right, @MargotBamborough.
No, I don't believe in gender identity. I don't believe in souls, and 'personal gender' is a special take on a soul.

What we have is a personality. Personalities are not sex-specific so they can't be gendered.

I can't for the life of me think why anybody wants to define their identity by a set of restrictive stereotypes. They're welcome to it if they choose, of course. It's their personal choice and others aren't obliged to validate it for them.

Identifying "as a gender" clearly doesn't change anyone's sex.

MargotBamborough · 22/04/2023 08:05

Completely agree, @GarlicGrace.

But I'm fairly sure that what children are being taught today is that they have a gender, just like they have a nationality or a star sign.

GarlicGrace · 22/04/2023 08:14

@MargotBamborough, yes, they are! Children are not only being taught that they have a gender, but also that their relative masculinity or femininity may mean their body's all wrong and must be changed. Most school materials on the subject also conflate sexual orientation with gender. So not only is this education as sexist as all get out, it's homophobic.

MargotBamborough · 22/04/2023 10:39

Absolutely, @GarlicGrace.

I wonder how these teaching materials got into schools in the first place? Who at the DfE said, "This new take on gender is what we will be teaching from now on?"

It just seems like such an extraordinary departure from what most adults were taught in school, i.e. how babies are made, how to avoid pregnancy and STDs, and in more recent years, the fact that some people are same sex attracted etc.

MargotBamborough · 22/04/2023 11:09

As a teenager I understood that if a man and a woman have unprotected sex, the woman might get pregnant. I never ever thought that a man could get pregnant because I understood that you need a sperm and an egg to make a baby, the man has the sperm and during sex the sperm goes into the woman's body to meet the egg and that's where the baby grows. I understood that taking the pill prevents pregnancy, and I had some vague notion that the pill works by tricking the woman's body into thinking it is already pregnant. I understood that STDs are transmitted through bodily fluids and that the only protection against them is condoms.

I understood from about the age of 8 that I would go through puberty which meant I would start having periods once a month, grow breasts and grow hair on my body.

I didn't understand how ovulation works, or that you can only get pregnant on certain days in your cycle. I didn't know what a cervix was. I didn't know how the morning after pill worked. I didn't know what an abortion involves. I didn't really know much about childbirth other than what I'd seen on TV and the fact that some babies are born by caesarian. I had never heard of PCOS or endometriosis.

I don't remember ever really learning about gender, but I had a strong sense of when something was sexist.

I have no idea when I first heard about trans people, but I must have been in my teens because a friend's older brother transitioned (hormones, surgery, the works) and I remember patiently explaining to my mum that Mark had had a sex change and was now a woman and we must call him Heather and refer to him as she. So whilst this was certainly not something I saw as normal, it must have been something I had already heard about, and I had much less trouble accepting it than my middle aged mum. Now I look back and think, "Well of course, she had given birth to two children, of course she was going to struggle more with the idea that humans can change sex than a teenager whose knowledge of human reproduction was entirely theoretical and pretty sketchy at that point."

So that was me, 20-25 years ago. And I do think that, despite the gaps in my understanding, I was quite well informed. And I think that despite my comments about Mark having changed sex, I'm pretty sure I always knew we were just being polite, and that Heather would never be able to, for example, have a baby.

What really bothers me about the teaching of sex and gender to children these days is that really young children, who have extraordinary imaginations and are very impressionable, appear to be being taught that whether you are a boy/girl/man/woman is a question of identity, not biology, and that it is about how you feel inside rather than what body parts you have. Some of these children, particularly those who don't have opposite sex siblings and have never shared a bath with a child of the opposite sex, might not even understand that children of the opposite sex have different private parts. So a lot of them must spend their early childhood thinking that being a boy or a girl is like being a Man U fan or a Gryffindor or something else entirely abstract.

For those children who decide at a young age that they are a girl because they like dolls (but are male) or that they are a boy because they like football and lego (but are female) this is going to be their absolute reality until they get to the age of 10 or so and are confronted with an even more absolute reality: puberty. By that point it is already too late to avoid a huge amount of distress and psychological trauma, whether they end up going through any kind of medical transition or not.

But what is the impact on the other kids, who have not decided that they identify as the opposite sex, but have nonetheless been taught these beliefs about sex and gender from a young age? What do they think a boy is and what do they think a girl is? How do you explain to a group of 9 year olds who have spent the last 5+ years being taught that whether you are a boy or a girl is just a question of how you feel, that boys and girls have different parts, that they will go through different paths to adulthood, and that their bodies will become very different and function in completely different ways?

Because I feel that, having grown up at a time when what we were taught about sex was actually grounded in biological reality, my own understanding of how this stuff works was fairly fuzzy.

So if you are trying to teach a group of 9 year olds about human reproduction, surely you are starting off on the back foot if those 9 year olds don't actually understand what a girl is and what a boy is, and that this is unchangeable. Sure, you can teach them about periods. But how do you explain which of them will get periods and which will not? And how do you ensure they all understand that a boy who identifies as a girl will not get periods but a girl who identifies as a boy will? And if you do manage to communicate that effectively, how do you deal with the emotional fallout among trans identifying kids for whom this is devastating news?

Using the phrase "person with a cervix" in healthcare communications aimed at adults is confusing enough when those adults are people who learned about human reproduction at a time when the teaching was still based in scientific reality.

Children being taught this crap about gender today are going to be even less capable of identifying whether they are a "person with a cervix" or not than today's adult women.

JackGrealishsLegs · 22/04/2023 11:17

Fantastic post @MargotBamborough! Thank you so much, really thought provoking.

MargotBamborough · 22/04/2023 11:29

@Riverlee I meant to reply to your post earlier. That's an interesting perspective about the 1980s.

The 1980s seem a bit weird to me because there were all these gender non conforming famous people like David Bowie and it seems to have been progressive in the sense of people being able to express themselves how they wanted regardless of whether they were a man or a woman, so I find your comment about pink being for girls and blue being for boys surprising. I had a vague idea that that was less rigid in the 1980s than it is today.

Of course as you point out, homosexuality wasn't as accepted then as it is today, and women's rights were still way behind in many way, such as marital rape still being legal.

I wonder how many of those fabulous men in makeup would have been publicly gay or trans in the 1980s if that had been acceptable.

dementedpixie · 22/04/2023 11:36

I didn't learn about gender except for things being masculine and feminine in french (born in 1973). We learned about sex and functions of the body.

I knew about transsexuals and transgender wasn't a thing. My brother came out as gay when I was 16 so he must have been age 20. Queen wasn't a word used as it was mainly a slur against gay people so I find it quite jarring when I hear it now.

I had to Google what cis meant a couple of years ago when dd (19) used it as it wasn't in use in my days either. I dont like it and find it superfluous when talking about men and women.

dementedpixie · 22/04/2023 11:37

Should say Queer not queen!

Riverlee · 22/04/2023 13:07

@MargotBamborough The pink/blue was just an easy/lazy example to use. You’re right, the 80s (best music decade ever) had stars such as David Bowie, Boy George, plus androgynous people such Annie Lennox, plus it wasn’t uncommon for boys to wear eyeliner (those were the days, sigh).

When Boy George burst onto the scene, people didn’t know at first whether he was male or female.

Thinking back, Gay people on tv were often portrayed as camp, think John Inman or Larry Grayson. You didn’t have ‘straight’ gay people on tv like you do today (not sure how quite to describe that, guess I mean non-camp).

I wonder how many of those New Romantics would be considered trans/queer (a non-pc term until recently) etc. today also. Very few have come out as gay.

To think that sex and gender are the same thing?
tryingtobeagoodhuman · 28/07/2023 13:34

Until recently, sex and gender were used interchangeably almost everywhere.

They are still used interchangeably in many places. For example, many NHS systems (at least until recently) only collected information related to "gender", which meant sex, and changing this has impacted the care received by people who have changed their gender on the system (e.g. females not receiving invitations to cervical screening because they have updated their gender to male). Many statistics produced by the government use sex and gender interchangeably.

I didn't learn "sex" and "gender" as different constructs at school - but I did learn about "gender roles" and "sex based stereotypes" as the cultural and societal expectations placed on people because of their gender.

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