Calling yourself a creative professional if you don't make any money from it

[SwanPools]

Through my work (hence NCed for this) I come across a number of people who will say they are in a creative profession, but who don't actually earn any money from it (or extremely little, say a few hundred a year). They are unpublished writers, artists who virtually never sell anything, musicians who put tracks online that no-one really listens to and actors who only do unpaid roles.

They do however invest a lot of time in their chosen activity and don't have another job. All are financially supported by their partners. They don't have young children or clean their own houses (this may be where I come in...) so couldn't be described as SAHPs or even housewives/husbands (as to me that implies looking after the home most of the time, not hiring a cleaner). They aren't retirement age either.

Should they be saying they are an xyz if they don't financially support themselves with it, or is that a money centric view and if it's how they spend their time then they are an xyz? At what point do they earn enough money from it to say they are one? Is earning any money OK or does it have to be at least min wage (for example)?

I don't have a horse in this race, I don't think I would say I was an xyz unless I made money from it but I also don't like that we define people so much by how they get their money.

IANBU = they shouldn't say they are an artist/writer/musician etc unless they make money from it
IABU = it's how you spend your time that matters, even if you earn nothing from it

I’m more intrigued as to why it bothers you so much? Calling yourself a writer or a painter or whatever isn’t a protected characteristic.

How much would they need to earn pa in order to make it ok? And is it the fact that they don’t have another job to pay the bills that bothers you? Because I hate to break it to you, but even published mid-list novelists need a day job. I write novels ‘for a living’, but the majority of my income comes from my university job. Every other fiction writer I know has a job.

I am a published author. I make very little money. I get paid for performing my poetry - again, little money.

I am also a professional artist and I sell my work.

I have a day job to make ends meet.

I fund myself - don't rely on parents.

How on earth does it concern you what they call themselves? If they sell a couple of pieces of art for a few hundred quid and don't have another job then they are an artist, surely? Not sure what else they'd say!

It doesn't really bother me, as I said in the OP I don't have a horse in the race. I just wondered what others think.

I suppose I think about it because I do one of the above things in my spare time but people still see me as a cleaner because that's how I make my money. And the people I'm talking about don't make any more money from it than I do but as they say that they are an xyz it seems more respected somehow? Maybe I just need to say I am an xyz instead of a cleaner! (I don't want this to get derailed into something about how I feel about my job though)

I definitely think it's OK to say you are an xyz if you still have another job too, but if you never make any money from the creative thing and no one really knows cares about your creative work, are you really an xyz? Maybe so and in which case it's just about how you spend your time.

To be fair, most published authors make very little money. I am multi-published, award winning and have both a traditional publisher and an agent. I am single, so other income to fall back on, so I also work outside the home.

I don't know many creative people who make a living wage out of it, to be honest.

Unfortunately lots of creatives/artists only get to be so because they have family money/someone to support them. I think if they are genuinely spending the main chunk of their time creating then fair enough to call yourself a painter/writer whatever.

If they say they're a novelist but on a decade have never written a full chapter then maybe not...

I personally would feel dishonest saying I was for example a writer if I had never published anything. But it seems IABU to think that!

Well, 'creative professional' isn't a protected title 😄, so they can call themself that if they like.

It’s always been like this tbh. Throughout history people in “creative” fields have often been sponsored by someone else, whether it’s their parents, their spouse or the medieval church.

It’s incredibly difficult to sustain yourself as a painter, an actor or a writer which is why a lot of people have had to rely on others for financial support or become destitute trying to make money.

Why do you think parents often discourage children from “following their dreams” and push them to go into accountancy or law?

Incidentally the word “professional” is somewhat misleading here. By definition a creative person isn’t a professional. But I don’t think it’s fair to judge someone for failing to be able to make a living in a creative field.

I think it's also interesting from the point of view of how us as a society define people so much by how they earn money rather than where their interests lie. I don't like that at all, but here I am being guilty of doing it 😅

I’m mostly intrigued by how you managed to specialise your client base to be lots of struggling creatives with high-earning partners, tbh.

If you write, you are a writer.

You might not be a writer who can make their living from it. But you can certainly claim to write if you spend at least some of your time doing it.

If you can self identify in other areas of life seems OK to self identify your vocation/occupation.Personally l find the word professional midleading and l wouldnt use it unless l made money from it.
i think in the creative arts its ok to say im a musician or a visual story teller. It only annoys me when people use job titles creatively (in my eyes) to imply a 'higher grade'. For example a fitter/machine op might say Im an engineer. Now within 5mins of talking to them I know they haven't got an BEng. Another might say they're a nurse when they're a care assistant.
If it bothers/irritates you so, next time someone tells you they're a sculptor say "How lovely...and do you have a job too?"

Incidents, if someone asked another women "What do you do" and they said "I'm a SAH mum" would that irritate you.

But all writers have to start somewhere! You have to write a lot of words before you are fit to be published, even if just as practice. So, yes, they are a writer, even though they may never actually be published.

Most of the published writers I know call themselves authors, rather than writers. Everyone writes, even if it's just notes to the milkman.

So if you have a cleaner you’re not a SAHM? What if you still do the majority of the cleaning, you just have a bit of help? Or suppose you do half each?

As for the writing thing… what if you self publish? What if you make more money (though not enough to live on) than you would if you were trade published? Do you count then?

Where is the line? I recently went freelance as a designer and the first 6 months I was supported almost fully by my husband. Its only been since January that I've been making more then 2-300 per month and now I'm making a decent part-time income (over a grand a month). The majority of the time I'm a sahm though. Am I a creative professional now but not before Christmas?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but I do agree with some pp that the creative industry is poorly paid and sometimes people work for very little as a way in but never...get in. Music is a big one for this.

I'm lucky that I work in the construction industry so my creative work has a technical aspect and my qualifications and experience mean something, I do consider myself an 'artist' though as I am creating imagery afterall

Omg OP I could have written this.

A pair of acquaintances of mine are like this. As a couple one has a 3 short day a week job that provides basic accomodation, the other brings in pennies from a creative occupation that they are basically unsuccessful at. The rest of their time is spent in unpaid "work" relating to either the same creative area both dabble in, or the furthering of their religious group.

They exist off handouts - they are insanely fast to claim anything offered free on local buy/sell pages, and will simply ask if anyone will give them x/y/z. Both are healthy & degree educated, they have local family support too. I know of 5 local businesses desperate for staff advertising 25 hour a week/school hour roles requiring zero experience, there's just no barrier to them getting an actual job.

I actually don't like to give them things any more, although I know they haven't a bean to rub together. I'd rather help the other people in need locally who work their arses off in actual jobs but are shafted by our crappy low wage economy.

I've read that the average annual income for a professional writer is about £7k so there must be many who are either supported by others or have another job.

I don't see an issue with unpublished authors describing themselves as writers, but follow up questions might establish that, at present, they are writing as amateurs.

I work with creative professionals indirectly- the more serious they are, the less they tend to describe themselves this way.

There are lots of people doing hobby professions and it’s actually fairly easy to get writing work- if you are prepared to work hard, listen to feedback, adapt your style and tone to suit the client’s brief and work your way up. You might not have time to talk about it online though

I am an unpublished writer, planning to self publish, financed by my very lucrative professional career. I don't especially care about making money from it.

Thing is, lots of people have this skanky, narrow mindset that people with my professional qualifications aren't creative. I'd rather be the sort of person who defined people by something other than how they make their money.

I do agree with some pp that the creative industry is poorly paid and sometimes people work for very little as a way in but never...get in. Music is a big one for this.

This is called being unsuccessful. Being a failure would be another description.

Why is it ok to spend years trying desperately (and failing) as say, a musician, when if you do the pissed away years trying to be a builder or lawyer or accountant people would think you are at best deluded and at worst a waster.

Was JK Rowling a writer before her book deal?

Was Van Gogh a painter before his paintings were valuable?

Interesting discussion point.

I think the answer is lots of people are artists, writers, actors and musicians but only a few are savvy or fortunate enough to earn a good living from it.

Yes, I get what you are saying.

I'm very into fashion. I spend time reading fashion magazines and imagining how I would style people. I guess it's my hobby. I write on blogs but don't make any money from it.

I have a day job.

If I didn't have a day job, and was supported by a spouse or whatever, I guess my options would be to describe myself as "stylist" (becuase it's how I spend my time), or "unemployed".

And I think that's why they do it. Because the alternative is unemployed.

Either way, they are in a very privileged position. As a pp says, it's always been this way.

The definition some people use of being an artist is one painting sold every couple of years.