Calling yourself a creative professional if you don't make any money from it

[SwanPools]

Through my work (hence NCed for this) I come across a number of people who will say they are in a creative profession, but who don't actually earn any money from it (or extremely little, say a few hundred a year). They are unpublished writers, artists who virtually never sell anything, musicians who put tracks online that no-one really listens to and actors who only do unpaid roles.

They do however invest a lot of time in their chosen activity and don't have another job. All are financially supported by their partners. They don't have young children or clean their own houses (this may be where I come in...) so couldn't be described as SAHPs or even housewives/husbands (as to me that implies looking after the home most of the time, not hiring a cleaner). They aren't retirement age either.

Should they be saying they are an xyz if they don't financially support themselves with it, or is that a money centric view and if it's how they spend their time then they are an xyz? At what point do they earn enough money from it to say they are one? Is earning any money OK or does it have to be at least min wage (for example)?

I don't have a horse in this race, I don't think I would say I was an xyz unless I made money from it but I also don't like that we define people so much by how they get their money.

IANBU = they shouldn't say they are an artist/writer/musician etc unless they make money from it
IABU = it's how you spend your time that matters, even if you earn nothing from it

I think there’s honestly a bit of envy running through this thread and I mean this gently - starting with the op.

So very much. That's because people think writing is easy, and they could do it if they only had time/ a spouse/ no DC/ a room of their own/ benefits. Yeah, you wouldn't.

I'm definitely envious of those who have that setup!

I'm not a writer but do another creative "thing" as a hobby (also have a degree in it fwiw). I absolutely would have more time to persue it if I had the setup that's being described here. I do it anyway and maybe I still wouldn't make money from it if I had all the time in the world, but I'd be more likely to just by virtue of having more time to practice and persue related opportunities.

I don;t think people want to 'write a book', they want to 'have written a book'. Preferably a best seller, with film rights sold!

I used to get lots of people telling me how they would write a book 'if they had the time.' I told them I wrote my first book as a single mother of five kids, with a day job. That usually shut them up.

But that's the nature of the arts. EVERYONE thinks they can do it. Some people have a go. Some make some money. A very few make lots of money. Most just play about at it now and then, 'when they've got time'. A professional is someone who does it - even when they don't have the time.

Yes, the people on threads about ideal careers seem to focus on staring out to sea from their nicely-decorated shepherd’s hut with a Moleskin notebook winsomely arranged at their elbow and an agent with a film rights contract permanently in her hand at the other end of the phone.

Obviously, I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t find it satisfying at some level, but there’s a lot of grunt work and rejection and risk — I’d written probably half a million words of fiction at a conservative estimate before my first novel was published, by sacrificing other things, around a FT job and parenting and the usual life stuff.

And there are people working just as hard as I did who haven’t got published, because of bad luck, bad match with current market etc. And they’ll keep going, because they can’t not, because they’re writers, regardless of whether they’re working in Tesco or as a QC.

Surely the point is the opposite - that it isn't easy - and that's why it's enormously advantageous to have time to spend on it. If it were easy, people who work full time would be dashing off 1000 words every evening before bedtime and churning out several excellent novels a year. It's because people know it doesn't work like that at all, that they would like to have time to spend on it.

This is interesting! I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this subject in general, because I am an artist. Almost everyone I meet (and a lot of people who already know me) assume I am a housewife who dabbles with painting unsuccessfully from home. Lots of people offer sympathy because I am - in their mind - a struggling artist scraping by on pennies and my husband's income. In reality, I have a publisher who buys everything I paint and earn around £3,000 on average per month. Not amazing but certainly not struggling as most assume when they slowly shake their heads and tut at my deeply unrewarding job. It did take me several years to feel comfortable calling myself an artist when asked what I did for a living as I think subconsciously I needed to be earning a suitable income from it before I could happily call myself an artist. Before I switched careers it was just a paying hobby.

I am interested in how you think you know how much these 'creatives' earn though, unless they freely admit to earning nothing. I'm not sure you can assume someone's income (although I may have missed you explaining how you know). Plenty of people would estimate that I earn pennies, because they don't know how my sales work and make an assumption that artist = starving!

And maybe there's a little bit of the 'I wish I could afford an elephant' about it...

...as in 'but what would you do with an elephant?' 'Oh, I wouldn't BUY one, I just wish I had that much money.'

People wishing they had time to write (or paint, or compose) just want more time. They wouldn't use it to write or paint or compose, but they'd like to have the time...

Very much so. The time and the freedom, I think. Not being endlessly tied to imposed working hours, day in, day out, year in, year out, decade in, decade out.

T S Eliot once queried why someone who'd contacted him described themselves as 'a poet'. He said '"Do you mean that you write poetry?" This was what they had meant.

I don't know quite why, but there's a difference. To say 'I'm an artist' is more pretentious and pompous somehow than saying 'I paint, or I make prints' etc. I write as a hobby and have had stuff published as part of my work, but I wouldn't call myself a professional writer. To say you're a poet is a huge claim. I write poetry but I think it would take conisderable external validation/evaluation for me to be able to say I'm a poet!!

I'm not denying that Tracy Emin or David Hockney shouldn't call themselves artists but I think for most people it's a bit pretentious. I think you need to make most of your income from doing art, or to be recognised publicly to actually state 'I'm an artist'.

Disclaimer: yes, I know that in a deeper sense we're all artists...of course. But that's not what OP is talking about, I think.

Personally, as someone who has written and published several books, I don't think it's time you need to be published. Or at least not huge swathes of time.

But no one ever believes me on that.

I think when you're more experienced and you know what works, then you don't. I can write a full length novel in three months, if I do 1k words a day before I get up in the morning, which might take me less than a hour. Because I know what I'm doing, after 25+ novels.

But when you're setting out and learning how to plot and work character arcs and all that, plus you may not be sure of your genre and story and need to research as you go - then it can take time. And that's what puts people off, because they only ever hear about full time authors who spend all day in their 'study' or doing research. So they think they can never write a book.

They don't hear about the thousands of us plonking away doing a bit here and there and then going to the day job. Even though we may be equally as successful as the full timers.

Ooh, I'm quite passionate about this, aren't I? I didn't realise...

yes, maybe we should do another thread as it is a complex subject. 25 novels is brilliant! I am a big believer in a bit at a time.

I paint traditional art in oils and make just enough to live on. I call myself a painter, but when I didn't earn a living from this I didn't used to refer myself to this as my profession.

I’ve always made a living from it - but not on books alone, even though they sell. Only about 50 people in the UK do.

No one supports me.

I get you OP - it’s irritating when a partner gives it the big ‘un about being An Artist when their poor fucking partner (wife) carries them for decades.

From books, I mean. Pfff authors, they never reread 😺

I'm a writer. I've been published but make very very little money from it.

I'm a very new stained glass artist and barely cover costs, I certainly don't earn a wage although I'm hoping this will improve as my technique evolves.

I also paint, crochet and craft and make a little money through that.

All in I probably earn £2-5k a year after costs if I'm lucky. But I'm disabled ( bipolar and have several autoimmune diseases so my ability varies). I'm very lucky that my DH works full time and I craft around my illnesses. I don't understand why you would be angry that I call myself an artist when I spend 10-30 hours a week actually making things. I AM an artist. And a writer.

I work work a runner. She doesn't make any money from it. Is she not allowed to call herself that?

I knit. Am I not a knitter because I don't sell anything?

People that write are writers. People that act are actors. Does it matter if they don't make much money at it?

AwaaFaeHom
Surely context is everything. If were talking about hobbies then someone saying "I'm a runner too... You're a cyclist aren't you... I'm a knitter, I'm a photographer" is clearly talking about their hobbies.

If someone said to me "what do you do?" and I replied "I'm an entrepreneur and runner" it would be quite a deliberate misrepresentation of my situation. I work part time whilst setting up a business and I enjoy running as a hobby. Giving the impression otherwise would be a bit wanky.

None of my friends who are very good in local operatic societies or music ensembles describe themselves as musicians or actors unless they are actually working in the industry, usually with a range of income streams to finance it. I know some brilliant craftspeople and the only people who describe themselves as their craft/trade are the people doing it professionally.

I've only ever heard the term "creative professionals" used by my peers, in TV, Film, Advertising and Photo, usually in senior roles, though of course there's no reason why junior roles shouldn't consider themselves professional, it's just you're not usually considered professional until you have experience.

I'm a creative professional in a senior management role in one of the aforementioned sectors for my day job. Pays all my bills.

I'm also an amateur artist. I don't really conflate the two. I'm a creative professional because of my day job, not my hobby. But I am still an artist. If anyone asks I'm happy to tell them I'm amateur. It's not how I make my living. I do it for fun and do exhibitions and sell a few paintings every year.

Honestly, no one gives a shit about anyone else's day job when we run exhibitions. People are there to look at the art. Some of us are professional artists and some are amateur (like me) and have other, unrelated jobs. I'm just trying to picture some of the guys I know putting "sports therapist" or "museum greeter" on their business cards they give out at art shows instead of "Artist" 😁 I mean, why would you? It's not what you're aspiring to or promoting?

And of course, most artists and musicians have multiple income streams because that's the gig nature of the work. When you run in successful circles you can see how much work goes in to keeping the wheel turning. They have every right to call themselves an artist, musician or writer. But, I've never heard any of them refer to themselves as "creative professionals".

...those who are bankrolled to pursue hobbies all day!

I do think you have a point OP - it's what used to be called a 'vanity project'. *
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The most well known one is Victoria Beckham, whose fashion line has** never made a profit, but it allows her to always be known as a fashion designer.

Having said that the first thing my now DH said to me when we first met was that he was writer. It turned out he was two chapters into writing an eventually abandoned science fiction novel!

I mean your friend is deluded though, isn’t he? He calls himself an artist but in fact he’s a sponger. He sponges off those close to him, including his parents and new partners, and lives on benefits that are meant for those in need, so he can indulge his hobby.

I'm a bit confused by OP's insistence 'not to have a horse in this race', when she clearly does. On some level she sees herself as being (insert creative vocation here) but because she cleans for a living, it seems inappropriate to define herself in terms of her vocation as opposed to occupation. Those without an occupation have only their vocations to define themselves by?

I guess I'm just confused as to where I stand.

I don't like that we define people so much by how they get their money and by the definition of success in the arts being sales, fame etc..

But at the same time I do find it a bit dishonest if people say they are xyz but really all their money comes from their spouse - how is it then not just a hobby?

That's why I posted - to try and get my own thoughts straight on it. I'm still torn tbh.

I think the question someone posed upthread about JK Rowling summed it up nicely.

Was she a writer before she was published? Of course, she was.

If someone is devoted to their creative pursuit/vocation, there's nothing dishonest about defining themselves by it. The fact that you clean for a living needn't make that the most important thing about you - you can decide how you define yourself, it's no-one else's business.

This is a little off-piste, but the dilemma you describe reminded me a bit of Sartre's waiter

https://bigthink.com/thinking/sartre-bad-faith-authenticity/