Calling yourself a creative professional if you don't make any money from it

[SwanPools]

Through my work (hence NCed for this) I come across a number of people who will say they are in a creative profession, but who don't actually earn any money from it (or extremely little, say a few hundred a year). They are unpublished writers, artists who virtually never sell anything, musicians who put tracks online that no-one really listens to and actors who only do unpaid roles.

They do however invest a lot of time in their chosen activity and don't have another job. All are financially supported by their partners. They don't have young children or clean their own houses (this may be where I come in...) so couldn't be described as SAHPs or even housewives/husbands (as to me that implies looking after the home most of the time, not hiring a cleaner). They aren't retirement age either.

Should they be saying they are an xyz if they don't financially support themselves with it, or is that a money centric view and if it's how they spend their time then they are an xyz? At what point do they earn enough money from it to say they are one? Is earning any money OK or does it have to be at least min wage (for example)?

I don't have a horse in this race, I don't think I would say I was an xyz unless I made money from it but I also don't like that we define people so much by how they get their money.

IANBU = they shouldn't say they are an artist/writer/musician etc unless they make money from it
IABU = it's how you spend your time that matters, even if you earn nothing from it

I don’t think necessarily that people not making money aren't good at their arts. It takes an enormous amount of work and luck to make it, I know many people who are amazing at art or music and need to work at other jobs.

it’s not fair at all but it is what it is. But everyone should be honest, with others and themselves.

All creatives are ‘unsuccessful’ until they are successful - it can turn on a dime, as the saying goes. The creative job market eg. For professional opera singers is much, much smaller than for, say, teachers or accountants (or even actors).
Creative professions are niche. There are terrific opera singers who will not be deemed by some people in this thread to be ‘successful’ simply because they don’t get the role. The fact is that there are so few roles that many talented people simply can’t find work and then take a second job such as teaching music until their time hopefully arrives.
In that case, I would still see them as a professional opera singer, rather than solely a music teacher. You can’t compare how the job markets work.

NBU, my ex landlady referred to herself as an interior designer but in reality she chose the carpets in her rentals.

OP you are just describing what it is to be an artist/bohemian. Which is to live off 'patrons'/spouses/parents, accept being poor forever whilst simultaneously dreaming of being rich, and spending years doing pointless work in the hope that you one day find the muse/spark to create your masterpiece.

It seems like a mental illness to anyone who isn't one. And it's also why we have no famous female artists who've had children, because mothers almost always put their family first...

Frankly, if you toss it off all day as a 'freelance writer/artist' or similar frippery rather than actually working and contributing to society then you're no professional.

It's a funny one isn't it, and I think it can rile us because of the reactions they hope to get by announcing "I am an author" or "I am an artist" when what they mean is I have another large income and spend my entirely free time drawing or writing - often with no success or even expectation of selling anything they make. The number of people in my old job I'd meet who would say "I'm an artist" and expect you to be in awe was truly hilarious.

You're right OP that for people who need to make a living i.e. most of us, we sort of have to be known by the thing we do for pay. Unless in the context of a talent show or something you wouldn't get many people who work in Next introducing themselves saying "I am a singer" as if others knew about their day job they'd probably say "er no you work in a shop". But if people have financial freedom so only do the hobby, they are free to announce that as if it's their real job.

There's even a bit of a divide in the 'author' world (although most will deny it exists) between the 'full time author' (therefore seen as the very successful one) and the 'author who also has a day job' ('trying...bless'). Although often the only difference between the two isn't sales or the quality of the prose, but the marital or relationship status.

Why isn't it good enough to have these things as a hobby?

If like most people you aren't good enough to earn a living from it then its your hobby.

I play two instruments to a high standard & sing. I'm not talented enough to earn a living doing it, its a hobby.

Honestly? It's vanity. People want to believe they are more talented than they are. Talent is by its nature defined by rarity, few people truly have it.

What most people have is a hobby level of skill.

I think I know the kind of women you mean OP. There is one in particular who I had to cut contact with because she became insufferable. Gave up work entirely due to "stress" - DH working FT in a genuinely stressful job, she did very few hours as admin asst with little responsibility. Last I saw on her Instagram, she was showing off the custom made "workshop" aka spare bedroom her poor DH had spent a number of weekends and £000s building bespoke furniture and fancy lighting etc into (plus the costs of the materials) .. all while making precisely 0 sales on Etsy 🤔

What really wound me up was the incessant complaints and begging posts about childcare for the 2 DC under 4 .. all so she could twat around make stock and prep for craft fairs. Just ridiculously entitled.

Hmm, it’s a weird one. I write but I wouldn’t say I’m a ‘writer’ because I’ve not been published. I’m no more of a writer than my DD who writes little stories. But if someone asked about me I’d say ‘oh I like to write.’ If I asked what someone did and they said ‘I’m a writer’ and it turned out they meant they didn’t work and would like to be a writer then I’d be a bit eh.

Having read other responses on this thread, I’m thinking there’s a large difference between people who have spent years of training, degrees, performances etc…(good actors, singers, musicians) and people who decide they’re quite good at choosing curtains and take a three month interior design course and are supported by a partner and get an article in Vogue due to ‘connections’.
They aren’t the same thing.

Yeah good points.

My mum is a really good writer and makes regular money from it, she was also self-employed in an unrelated field which - you know -pays the mortgage. The level of snobbery she's been subject to by other writers she knows who consider her a sellout - rather than surviving on family money, benefits or a partner like they do - is horrible to behold.

If they’re doing it for free I think they can call themselves an artist, singer etc but not a “professional” as to me that implies doing it as a job.

However if they do get paid - albeit badly/rarely - I think they can still call themselves a professional whatever. They’re just not very successful.

Noticed a lot of posts lately where a cleaner/tutor/babysitter is super miffed about their employers not living their lives in the appropriate way. Appropriate as defined by the employee.

Almost no creative professionals make an average wage from it. So by your reasoning they wouldn't really exist

Ok, well I go running sometimes so next time someone asks what I do I’ll tell them I’m an athlete.

That’s the problem really. If you’re saying ‘I write/paint/sculpt in my spare time too’ that’s absolutely fine! If you’re replying to ‘what do you do’ with ‘I’m an author’ when in fact you’ve never had so much as a short story published, then that’s misleading.

One came to me by chance, they then recommended me to a friend. Both of them have had friends round when I've been working who I've heard them talking to (and then later looked at on SM out of nosiness!). I haven't met heaps of them tbh but I guess they congregate so once I met one I found some others!

They don't have young children or clean their own houses (this may be where I come in...) so couldn't be described as SAHPs or even housewives/husbands (as to me that implies looking after the home most of the time, not hiring a cleaner).

If they cleaned their own houses, you would be out of a job.

I work in the cultural sector. I can't get worked up about this. You can make lots of art in whatever form and not make money from it and art be what you do. Feels like you're insecure which is why you're bothered about it.

This would do my nut if I were a published author and single and I was perceived as less-than in the field where ALMOST NO ONE EARNS EVEN MINMUM WAGE because I didn’t have a man to ponce off. Bugger that!

not much you can do about it I suppose but grim.

Sociologically speaking, professional artist us a bit of an oxymoron. Professions have set training, cides of ethics, gatekeeping practices etc which are pretty much the exact opposite of how the art / creative world works, at least in the post-Romantic West.

I agree OP. I could be the “managing director and sole shareholder of my own business” tomorrow, simply by incorporating a company which doesn’t actually do anything or make any money, which is kinda the same thing.

That’s what I’m thinking… OP why do you care so much? Is your partner pursuing to do something like this?

No he's not thank fuck!

It honestly just began as a wondering thought whilst cleaning a bathroom 😂

It's not really about specific people so much but more about how we define ourselves/each other in society - people put a lot of emphasis on how you make a living but maybe we should be defining people more by what they enjoy doing?

I will freely admit I am quite insecure though and pretty jealous of those who are bankrolled to persue hobbies all day!

And then it's about hobbies vs work too, isn't it? As PPs have said, if you don't make any money from something are you "just" a hobbyist/amateur? What if you've had a lot of training? What if you've had no training but make big money? Does that mean Van Gogh was a hobbyist?

The phrase 'everyone is an artist' gets on my nerves a bit. If I read a science text book will they make me a scientist, or if I go for a run am I an athlete, as another PP said?

I was in art school for 6 years, worked as a professional artist for a couple of years. I made just about enough money to survive on but it was uncomfortable, so I do office work now as sole income and art as a hobby. I don't ever call myself an artist, as that is not now my profession. In fact I never called myself an artist, I said I was a painter as did most of my peer group.

To OPs point - one of my art school peers is married to a hedge fund manager. She is as you describe - has been an artist for many years as she doesn't have to make much / any money from it. I don't begrudge her though, she is very good.