To think that my DH and I are growing apart due to political differences?

[Internationalwomendayheadquarters]

DH and I met 15 years ago. We were both fairly liberal and centre in terms of politics and subsequent discussions were amicable. Fast forward all those years and he’s turned more to the right, whereas I’ve gone more to the left.

We differ now about almost everything: Brexit, refugees, unions and strikes. I feel that he’s become a real Tory bore to be honest. Has this happened to anyone else? Obviously we do try and be respectful of each other and have good debates about politics but fundamentally I feel that we aren’t as close as we once were. He’s a lot older than me too and he has become cynical, grumpy and argumentative whereas I’ve got a lot more energy and vitality to me. Sometimes I really crave a decent left wing professor to spend my evenings with. (Partly joking about that, but you get the gist)

Honestly, I don't see falling out with a spouse about something like Brexit. There are so many different facets to it, with different possibilities or weight that can be given to them. The idea that there is one "right" answer seems unbelievable to me, there is lots of room to disagree and most people wil disagree about some even if they voted the same way.

The BBC as an institution is liberal rather than left, there is a difference. They were very biased against Corbyn (who is left wing). The top brass has been taken over by Tories as well which feeds into the news coverage.

The Guardian is similar (they even backed the Lib Dems in 2010). It's a liberal paper. Channel 4 i'd agree but then the government have tried their best to privatise it and it's still bound by OFCOM which GB News apparently isn't.

You have summed up my position better than I could myself. I’m as much in favour of socialist principles as ever I was but identity politics has me confused. People can’t be summed up by one aspect of their identity. I think some people might define me as having moved to the right but I don’t think I have.

If you're not a liberal in your 20s, you have no heart.
If you're not a conservative in your 40s, you have no brain.

Oversimplification but the age gap here is likely to be responsible.

All sounds a bit controlling to me - the idea that unless my spouse has the same political views as me then that is something I can't deal with or accept.

Obviously there are some views that are particularly abhorent or that are likely to have significant impact on you/your families lifestyle/health/safety, but to me its a pretty weak marriage that can't accommodate partners wanting to vote for different mainstream political parties, especially since I don't see much practical difference between the three big ones in the UK anyway.

its a pretty weak marriage that can't accommodate partners wanting to vote for different mainstream political parties

I couldn’t agree more. As I said, there’s a lot more to my bloke and our relationship than the boxes we put crosses in on the ballot paper. We agreed on Brexit - both remainers - and Grenfell. He thinks Johnson’s a buffoon and Truss made him beyond angry yet he can’t seem to break himself of voting Tory. It would be ludicrous to end a happy 23 year marriage over it.

That's the point, though, isn't it?

You might not consider that the Tory party represents abhorrent views, but they are absolutely abhorrent to me as someone who sees the negative impact of their policies on vulnerable people on a daily basis. And the current version of the Tory party that has emerged in recent years is particularly awful.

I don't agree that all mainstream parties are the same. I am utterly underwhelmed by the alternatives to Tory government at present, but I think the rhetoric that they are all the same is actually really damaging.

We live in a democracy. People absolutely have a right to vote for any legal political party and to believe whatever they like. However, I do not personally want to share my life with someone who does not share my fundamental values, because it is important to me to believe that my life partner is a decent person. That isn't controlling in the slightest. It is just about having basic standards about who you want to have in your "inner circle".

Political views get to the very core of who you are as a person. How you perceive the world and what you think is important. Why should anyone feel obliged to stay in a relationship with someone who they feel that they can no longer like and respect as a person?

Why should anyone feel obliged to stay in a relationship with someone who they feel that they can no longer like and respect as a person?

They shouldn’t. Nor should anyone be despised because they stay with someone they love and who makes them happy but puts their cross in a different box on a ballot paper.

Oh absolutely. I am certainly not making any judgements about anyone else's relationships - that's definitely not my business and if people are able to co-exist happily with their different beliefs, then good luck to them.

I am merely responding to the suggestion that it is somehow controlling to want your spouse to share the same basic values/beliefs about what is right and what is wrong. I think it's pretty reasonable.

And if that makes the marriage "weak", so be it. I don't see how a marriage could stay strong if one person finds the other person's views morally reprehensible. It is hardly a foundation for a solid relationship.

I don't see how a marriage could stay strong if one person finds the other person's views morally reprehensible. It is hardly a foundation for a solid relationship.

Yet you don’t make judgements about other people’s relationships? 😂

I’ve explained several times that party political allegiances and values and morals aren’t the same thing but for whatever reason you seem unable to grasp this. I’m beginning to have some sympathy with Tory posters who complain about the moral superiority of those who vote differently.

It pisses me off that my bloke continues to vote Tory when you couldn’t get a fag paper between our values.

Where am I making any judgements about anyone else's relationship?

If you feel that your values are mutually compatible in your relationship, then clearly, there isn't an issue, is there? I couldn't possibly begin to judge this as I don't know your reasons for voting how you do. If you don't regard it as a moral choice, then my thinking isn't really relevant to your situation, is it?

All I am saying is that for me, my political decision making is absolutely and inextricably linked to my fundamental values, so for me, it is certainly a matter of morality. And as such, it would not be morally acceptable to me to have a partner who chose to vote Tory. FWIW, my DH and I don't always vote the same way in elections, so it isn't that I think we have to agree. It is simply that the basic underlying values behind our decision-making have to align.

As for judging people who vote Tory, well yes, I do tbh. I am not saying that I think I am superior to them. I am just saying that I don't like their values and they are not the type of people who I would choose to share my life with. They are more than welcome to reach the same conclusion about me - they would be right!!

Where am I making any judgements about anyone else's relationship?

The bit I quoted at the top of my post, perhaps?

It is simply that the basic underlying values behind our decision-making have to align.

Ditto. But you seem to think those values must lead to the same political decision. And they don’t necessarily.

But the bit you quoted at the top of your post was where I said that it probably wasn't a solid foundation for a marriage if one person finds the other partner's views morally reprehensible.

I am not judging whether or not anyone else finds their partner's views morally reprehensible, and I'm not saying that they should - that's for them to determine, not me.

But if they did believe that their partner had views that they considered to be morally reprehensible, are you saying that you actually think they could have a happy, healthy relationship in spite of this perception? For me, believing that my partner is a fundamentally decent person is kind of a prerequisite.

And yes, you might feel that your values can still be aligned despite you voting one way and your partner the other. That's your call. But I am not talking about your values, I'm talking about mine. And mine would be fundamentally with someone who voted Tory.

I guess the only exception to this would be if the person's values were aligned but they didn't have any knowledge or understanding of the impact of Tory policy. In other words, if their vote was more out of ignorance rather than because of incompatible values. But if that were the case, we wouldn't really be compatible in any case because I wouldn't be attracted to someone who was so ignorant of what was going on around them.

And actually, I have been quite clear that our shared values don't necessarily need to lead to the same political desicion. As I said above, we do not always vote the same way.

However, what we do agree on is the fact that a vote for the Tories would be fundamentally incompatible with the values that we both share.

Hard agree.

I strongly disagree. You just can't separate ethics and values from how someone votes. That can't be genuine.

If they vote for or support parties and therefore policies that aren't aligned with their values, then they're either lying or they're not very committed to those views. I'd wonder if they were telling you what you want to hear.

Watch Howards End. The film, not the TV adaptation.

The same issues are still with us.

I could not be married to a Tory. No way

People grow conservative when they get older because they want to conserve what they have (particularly if they have asset wealth, made a few quid) and are more resistant to change in general as they get older. People are more likely to be liberal in their 20s because they're more idealistic.

Neither is necessarily right or wrong, but that conundrum is nothing to do with intelligence. The core Tory voters are retired.

I don't see how a marriage could stay strong if one person finds the other person's views morally reprehensible. It is hardly a foundation for a solid relationship.

Really? I think a good number of relationships, romantic and otherwise, benefit from folks just letting others be despite finding their views immoral. Isn't that part of respecting other people's right to make their minds up?

I can't imagine loving someone and expecting political compliance or dependency out of them. That's not even allowing them to be a person to me, let alone respecting the beauty of their individuality.

I've read this several times and I just can't wrap my head around what you're saying.

You genuinely wouldn't mind if your partner held views that you personally considered to be immoral? Really? Is that because morals are just not very important in your own life? Or do you simply not care whether your partner is - according to your own evaluation - a decent person or not?

If you don't care about what kind of person he is, then what do you care about? What's the basis for a successful relationship in your view if shared values don't matter?

I honestly can't understand your perspective at all. If I privately thought that DH was an arsehole with morally repugnant views, why on earth would I want to spend my life with him? Raise children with him?

Nobody has said anything here about compliance or dependency. It isn't about telling someone how they should vote at all. It's about not wanting to spend your life with someone who has a fundamentally different understanding of what's right and wrong.

That was to @ConcordeOoter. Forgot to quote, sorry.

Totally agree Mrs Bennett. It's about greed for me and standing by doing nothing whilst others don't have food, warmth, shelter. Absolutely couldn't live with that.

I don't agree with the premise that someone isn't a decent person if they take a different view on things.

I know that decent people can come to different, even diametrically opposed conclusions on the same things. I count among my respected friends and loved ones people who disagree with me on political parties, brexit, the israel/palestine situation, abortion, euthanasia, the list goes on, and none of it means they are some morally lower form of life. This is actually obvious, I would consider "someone isn't a decent person if they oppose me on big issue x" a really, really badly extremist way of looking at the world.

Immoral is a strong word - I agree. But you have to remember that people stay together through all sorts of things which are immoral; one person cheats, the couple survives. Or one commits a crime, the couple stays together. Who knows if people really have shared values - you can see that some people make assumptions even about intimate things and those are found out to be wrong.

Shared values are important. But if you stay with someone and you reckon their views are immoral, that's really saying you don't care yourself. And it's possible to be with immoral partner.