Page 9 | Why is there so much sneering at Americans with European ancestry?

BrBa · 2023-04-14T14:47:37+00:00

I don’t understand! I identify with all my ancestors whether they came as religious refugees or early colonisers, were already indigenous to the region or brought in as slaves. Yours Swiss, German, Native American North, Central and South, Sephardic, Irish, South East African, Scottish, Acadian/French, and English

DisquietintheRanks · 14/04/2023 19:13

suburbophobe · 14/04/2023 18:48

But America is a child in terms of global history and identity.

The ancestors of Native Americans may have lived on and around the Bering Strait for about 10,000 years before streaming into the Americas

There, fixed that for you.

You do know don't you that what we are taught in school as children only relates to one country's history?

Non stop Henry VIII anyone? "Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived"....

Yes and no. The territory now known as the USA was populated long before Columbus set sail but it wasn't the USA then but a series of nations (how many, who was in charge and to what extent the concept of nationhood applied is hotly debated).

Grimbelina · 14/04/2023 19:15

I have had more than one relative who mysteriously developed an Irish accent after going to live in the US! They had a great life out there with their whole new identity (we are all roughly a quarter Irish but it had never occurred to me - or I think anyone else in the family - to consider ourselves anything other than English).

TreesAtSea · 14/04/2023 19:16

Isanyoneup · 14/04/2023 19:07

I agree with the posters who say it seems to be tinged with racism when they say it. I remember there was a bit of a fracas across the internet over the idea of Rishi Sunak being English. A lot of Americans couldn't grasp that idea that to us he's English, because he is. They saw his race and ethnic heritage first nationality second, we tend to do it the other way round here. British Asian rather than African American. It's a subtle but noticeable difference.

Agreed

phoenixrosehere · 14/04/2023 19:18

WhiplashGirlchild · 14/04/2023 18:38

I wonder why Americans never seem to go around claiming "I'm Chinese", "I'm Nigerian"? It turns out that not all nationalities and cultures are fair game for people to claim. They'll say "I'm part Chinese" or "I have Nigerian heritage" like the rest of the English speaking world. The wholesale hijack of European identities is somewhere between cringe and plain rude.

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The cringe is assuming that the groups you mention don’t because you have never heard it.

Isanyoneup · 14/04/2023 19:19

MooseBreath · 14/04/2023 19:13

Except they do claim it. My ancestry is from Russian Ashkenazi Jew and Irish Catholic immigrants. Both marginalized communities. When both sides arrived in North America, their surnames were spelled incorrectly due to disdain. It's important for me to celebrate my heritage, and it's not "cringe" or "rude" for me to do so. Am I supposed to just forget that I had relatives in Auschwitz or suffering from the Potato Famine just because they were European and I am North American? I don't claim to have experienced it, but I certainly have their cultures as part of my own.

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Misspelling happens in all cultures though. My own family have multiple spellings or our surname through the generations because of illiteracy, it's been interesting to trace the family tree due to this.

Irish migrants to England usually dropped the O' part of the surname as another example. Fwiw I think it's lovely to celebrate the whole of who you are but as with others I find it baffling the way it's phrased and how adamant Americans are about how they identify.

PrestonHood121 · 14/04/2023 19:23

America is a young country, so to speak. It’s just what they do. Many people never leave the USA so banging on and on about their heritage gives them a way to make polite (or not) conversation when they meet someone from Europe or wherever they want to be from.

MissConductUS · 14/04/2023 19:28

greenlychee · 14/04/2023 18:50

i feel like American modern history isn't really that old and so they want to feel like they come from somewhere with more history and roots.

I dunno. The town where I live was established by a land grant from King Willian III (William of Orange) in 1697. That's old enough for me.

CeliaNorth · 14/04/2023 19:30

Of course Biden swerved the UK

He visited Belfast.

Belfast is in the UK.

Isanyoneup · 14/04/2023 19:31

MissConductUS · 14/04/2023 19:28

I dunno. The town where I live was established by a land grant from King Willian III (William of Orange) in 1697. That's old enough for me.

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To put it into context of European history, that's the late Early Modern Period... Not meaning to patronise just explaining that in terms of cultural development America really is very young, and as per my earlier analogy like a tween flexing its muscles a bit.

belleager · 14/04/2023 19:31

TreesAtSea · 14/04/2023 19:16

Agreed

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I wouldn't agree.

African American was popularised by Black Americans as a term without direct racial connotations - it was about place of origin, not colour of skin.

Black British, White British (and Black American, since that term is used alongside African American) are all standard use.

What this whole discussion suggests to me is that people are very quick to presume that there's one "right" approach to language, culture, and identity. And it happens to be the one known best in Britain.

You need to look at the history to understand the significance. Our cultures reflect our histories. There is no reason to assume British (or European) terms and concepts are the default.

(British Asian - I don't know where the term comes from. But if Sunak identifies as British Asian, good on him).

suburbophobe · 14/04/2023 19:31

The territory now known as the USA was populated long before Columbus set sail but it wasn't the USA then but a series of nations (how many, who was in charge and to what extent the concept of nationhood applied is hotly debated).

I don't disagree with you but a link would be helpful to back up your statement.

I would really be interested. I usually go to Wikipedia for these kinds of things.

Isanyoneup · 14/04/2023 19:31

Oops not late it's mid early modern

belleager · 14/04/2023 19:32

suburbophobe · 14/04/2023 19:31

The territory now known as the USA was populated long before Columbus set sail but it wasn't the USA then but a series of nations (how many, who was in charge and to what extent the concept of nationhood applied is hotly debated).

I don't disagree with you but a link would be helpful to back up your statement.

I would really be interested. I usually go to Wikipedia for these kinds of things.

I would try a google of "first nations", America?

Isanyoneup · 14/04/2023 19:33

belleager · 14/04/2023 19:31

I wouldn't agree.

African American was popularised by Black Americans as a term without direct racial connotations - it was about place of origin, not colour of skin.

Black British, White British (and Black American, since that term is used alongside African American) are all standard use.

What this whole discussion suggests to me is that people are very quick to presume that there's one "right" approach to language, culture, and identity. And it happens to be the one known best in Britain.

You need to look at the history to understand the significance. Our cultures reflect our histories. There is no reason to assume British (or European) terms and concepts are the default.

(British Asian - I don't know where the term comes from. But if Sunak identifies as British Asian, good on him).

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The issue is Americans proudly wear their European ancestry as a badge of honour so obviously Europeans are going to be confused by the linguistic differences.

It's the joy of being human. We are all individuals coming together to form a collective, lots to learn about each other!

tabulahrasa · 14/04/2023 19:35

KnittingNeedles · 14/04/2023 18:22

I don't sneer. I make a lot of money out of Americans who want to explore their roots in the UK.

Most of us in the UK know where we're from. We know our ancestors and their ancestors grew up on these islands, or if people are from other parts of the world they will have a strong sense of their own ethnicity and history.

Many Americans don't have that. They know that as a white American their ancestors originally probably came from somewhere in Europe, and as a black American, that their story probably involves people who were enslaved. So they look into where their grandparents or great grandparents or great great grand parents sailed to the US from.

Sure, they like the tartan and the kitsch and the shamrocks and so on. They are PROUD of being 1/16th Irish or Welsh or whatever. And good on them. The heritage tourism sector is growing rapidly. Next week I am meeting up with a client from Ohio whose great grandmother grew up in Glasgow in the early 20th century and emigrated about 1921. She wants to see where she lived, went to church, went to school, local parks and landmarks. And is paying me handsomely to show her round. If her visit involves some buying tartan scarves and eating haggis I have zero issue with that.

Do most of us in the U.K. know where we’re from?...

I know where 3 of my grandparents were from and I only know anything further back than that because one grandparent was from Spain and has a mildly interesting family background. (I’ve never told anyone I’m Spanish though, cause, I’m not)

My DP’s surname isn’t from this country, but no-one knows why, or when that happened - because they only know 1 or 2 generations back.

I couldn’t tell you where anyone else’s ancestors were from tbh, it’s literally never come up.

suburbophobe · 14/04/2023 19:36

Thanks @belleager.

I know quite a bit, having been there, even did a sweat lodge!

Always more to learn though!

HamBone · 14/04/2023 19:37

GulfCoastBeachGirl · 14/04/2023 15:55

I don't see it that way at all. It's just a nod to your ancestry as so many of us are children/grandchildren of immigrants.

Americans who identify as Polish American (for example) are just proud of the ancestry, not denying that they're American.

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@GulfCoastBeachGirl It genuinely perplexed me when I’d only been in the US a few months and someone told me that they were “Irish.” I asked them where they were from and they said “Shreveport, Louisiana.” 🤣 I’d been wondering why I couldn’t detect even a hint of an Irish accent!

I do find it abit daft, tbh, if you want to refer to your heritage, describing yourself as Irish American makes far more sense. My DH is a Euro blend of Irish American, Polish American, Croatian American, Welsh American.😂

Cherrysoup · 14/04/2023 19:37

I think the attitude that you can’t be more Irish than an Irish American (read this recently somewhere) is batshit. I met an American claiming to be Irish despite being 5th generation!

Having said that, African American appears to be a valid and much used term and you’d have to go back a while to count the generations there.

Maybe it’s about the youth of the country, they simply don’t have the history and grounding that eg a European country has.

Endlesssummer2022 · 14/04/2023 19:38

CeliaNorth · 14/04/2023 19:30

Of course Biden swerved the UK

He visited Belfast.

Belfast is in the UK.

I know but he was there about 30 seconds took some photos outside the aeroplane and ran away as fast as he could from Arlene Foster. I’ve been in Westfield shopping centre longer than he was in Belfast. He needed to run before Braverman turned up wearing a KKK outfit singing anti Irish songs.

GulfCoastBeachGirl · 14/04/2023 19:38

phoenixrosehere · 14/04/2023 19:18

The cringe is assuming that the groups you mention don’t because you have never heard it.

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I'm shocked someone never heard of Chinese-American or Asian-American! This is actually a significant part of the population in the US.

tabulahrasa · 14/04/2023 19:41

GulfCoastBeachGirl · 14/04/2023 19:38

I'm shocked someone never heard of Chinese-American or Asian-American! This is actually a significant part of the population in the US.

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Pretty sure they meant white Americans with distant ancestry tbh.

Ludo19 · 14/04/2023 19:42

Smartiepants79 · 14/04/2023 16:15

It’s this.
My grandparents come from Scotland, I don’t claim to be Scottish.
My DH grandparents came from Poland in the 1930s. Not even his Dad would claim to be anything other than English. Cos that was where he was born and lived his whole life.
Americans do sometimes seem to struggle just being American. Some of them seem to need to have some other kind of ancestry.

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I agree with this.

My maternal grandfather was Irish.
My paternal grandmother was Dutch.

I was born in Scotland so I'm Scottish but I definitely think it's nice to have those bloodlines but I'm not Irish or Dutch.

belleager · 14/04/2023 19:42

Isanyoneup · 14/04/2023 19:33

The issue is Americans proudly wear their European ancestry as a badge of honour so obviously Europeans are going to be confused by the linguistic differences.

It's the joy of being human. We are all individuals coming together to form a collective, lots to learn about each other!

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I know racism is a huge issue in America. I just don't accept the connection you are making here re African American. It was a term specifically used to counteract racism.

On the broader - wearing ancestry with pride - issue: I can see how this could have a racialist element for some, but as has been pointed out on this thread, it's not just a white or European issue.

I have never been confused by American use of these terms at all - but agree, it's easily cleared up with a sensible query (or a bit of listening) if people are confused.

belleager · 14/04/2023 19:46

Ludo19 · 14/04/2023 19:42

I agree with this.

My maternal grandfather was Irish.
My paternal grandmother was Dutch.

I was born in Scotland so I'm Scottish but I definitely think it's nice to have those bloodlines but I'm not Irish or Dutch.

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That's fine for you. Why shouldn't their way be fine for them?

I don't think this is something the world needs to agree on!

CampsieGlamper · 14/04/2023 19:47

I suppose the reason black Americans do not refer to themselves as Nigerian Americans etc is because their ancestry in the continent of Africa will be harder to find, and also they may not with to recall that many were sold by fellow Africans and Arabs to slave traders. Whereas those coming from Europe and China had an oral tradition and knowledge of where they came from. Choice and lack of choice in emigration comes into it too.