Page 4 | Why is there so much sneering at Americans with European ancestry?

BrBa · 2023-04-14T14:47:37+00:00

I don’t understand! I identify with all my ancestors whether they came as religious refugees or early colonisers, were already indigenous to the region or brought in as slaves. Yours Swiss, German, Native American North, Central and South, Sephardic, Irish, South East African, Scottish, Acadian/French, and English

proppy · 14/04/2023 16:41

it’s easy to sneer at Americans clinging on to a very distant heritage but when people are forced to leave their homes and their country, knowing that they will never see their families again, they tend to place great value on passing on their cultural heritage to future generations.

I think people do understand that but they still see differences. My parents are Irish, all my large extended family are in Ireland & one of my parents moved back there years ago so i've spent lots of time there. I grew up in an very diverse part of London & went to catholic schools & had many Irish family friends. My dc have been bought up with similar cultural practices & heritage but it's far more diluted than mine was.

Labraradabrador · 14/04/2023 16:43

proppy · 14/04/2023 16:28

@Labraradabrador so food traditions as opposed to things like religion, how you raise dc etc?

Depends on how connected you are to a single heritage- mine is a big mix, so while we acknowledge them all, we wouldn’t identify with one more than the others. I have a lovely handwritten recipe book from my grandmother that is central to several family traditions.

for others there is a more singular link - ‘Irish Catholic or ‘Italian Catholic’ is a thing. My understanding is that Biden was raised in a community of majorly (if not majority) Irish descendants and therefore have stronger ties to being ‘Irish’ but also still very much American. I fave a friend from a small midwestern town where almost everyone comes from Finnish immigrants going back a couple hundred years. They have some very specific Christmas traditions, and many would attribute community values around family of child rearing to their Finnish cultural origin.

Horizons83 · 14/04/2023 16:44

CordyLines · 14/04/2023 16:24

Brits seem to be raging that the POTUS went to Ireland and swerved the UK. That is where the sneering is coming from I think.

Well when you think about it the British colonised the East Coast of America until they were driven out. They were the invaders. The British colonised many other countries also, so have/had no desire to be anything other than the superior population they seem to think they are.

Immigrants and emigrants on the other hand were not colonisers, and in the case of the Irish particularly, went to US on coffin ships because the British sold what food the Irish could produce during the Great Famine back to Britain (Trevalyan's corn), and left the natives to either starve or leave.

There is a different dynamic involved in emigres than there is to those who didn't HAVE to emigrate i.e. were the overlords.

No wonder there is such a longing for ancestry, I think it is great to seek out your roots and have a rant as to why you are where you are. America has opened its arms to many people who needed it badly. Thank you America.

Last time I checked Belfast was part of the UK...

Ozgirl75 · 14/04/2023 16:45

There’s quite a bit of this in Australia too. I know lots of people who think of themselves as “italian” for example, even though it’s their grandparents who emigrated and they’re Aussie born and raised. However, I think in their case it’s because often they were treated quite badly when they arrived and it’s a desire to maintain those links with the home country - my close friend says her Italian in laws are more Italian than Italians!
Interestingly, there’s very rarely a desire to play up English heritage. For example, Ash Barty often talks of being a proud indigenous woman, but she is just as English as Indigenous (two grandparents English, one indigenous) but she never mentions her English background as important.
I assume this is the same as in America, the British are the bad guys in the narrative 😁

phoenixrosehere · 14/04/2023 16:47

MasterBeth · 14/04/2023 16:41

So what sounds arrogant and can make us sneer is when Americans assume that they don't need to consider how they talk to a non-American audience.

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And that goes both ways…

Swiftbushome · 14/04/2023 16:47

It feels a bit like cultural appropriation as well I think. I wouldn't claim to be Jamaican because my grandfather was. That would imply I'd had a completely different life than the one I lived. I didn't come here in a boat in the 60s, nor did I live in Kingston with the violence that many people there have experienced.
By the same token Biden hasn't lived in Ireland - or indeed Northern Ireland throughout the Troubles. Irish American? Sure. Irish? Nope.. Sorry.

Anonymous48 · 14/04/2023 16:49

MasterBeth · 14/04/2023 16:41

So what sounds arrogant and can make us sneer is when Americans assume that they don't need to consider how they talk to a non-American audience.

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Please don't sneer. It's not a good look.

This meaning of Irish=Irish American or Italian=Italian American is so well used and understood in the US, I'm sure that most Americans don't even realize it might not be used the same way elsewhere, It's not about being arrogant.

Anonymous48 · 14/04/2023 16:50

Swiftbushome · 14/04/2023 16:47

It feels a bit like cultural appropriation as well I think. I wouldn't claim to be Jamaican because my grandfather was. That would imply I'd had a completely different life than the one I lived. I didn't come here in a boat in the 60s, nor did I live in Kingston with the violence that many people there have experienced.
By the same token Biden hasn't lived in Ireland - or indeed Northern Ireland throughout the Troubles. Irish American? Sure. Irish? Nope.. Sorry.

When an American says they are Irish what they mean is that they are Irish American.

tabulahrasa · 14/04/2023 16:51

Anonymous48 · 14/04/2023 16:31

"To the rest of the world, saying "I'm Irish" means "I'm Irish"."

Absolutely! I totally get that. That is what I am trying to explain. It has a different meaning in the US

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People know that fine, but it jars when someone says they’re Irish (for example) when that’s not what Irish means to anyone but Americans.

Also, the whole - culture thing...prefixed American culture is still just American, it has no real relation to culture in European countries now because they’ve evolved in different contexts from when those people emigrated.

MissConductUS · 14/04/2023 16:51

For example, Ash Barty often talks of being a proud indigenous woman, but she is just as English as Indigenous (two grandparents English, one indigenous) but she never mentions her English background as important. I assume this is the same as in America, the British are the bad guys in the narrative

Not really. Any hard feelings from the American Revolution are over at this point. My husband's ancestry is mostly English. It's so common here that it's hardly worth talking about.

The part of New York I live in has a fascinating mix of place names. They're either Dutch, English, or Native American.

CordyLines · 14/04/2023 16:52

@Horizons83 It is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to be exact.

It was great to see him there acknowledging the achievements of all sides in the Good Friday Agreement, and most people did appreciate his presence to mark the 25th Anniversay of that day. Apart from Snarlin Arlene who was annoyed that he didn't fly a Union Jack on his motor. It's all Flegs with that lot in the DUP. Anyway he didn't fly a Tricolour either obviously in recognition of not annoying either side. Which was the correct approach.

Biden has ancestors and current cousins in Ireland, Republic of. He was made very welcome and he seemed to enjoy himself immensely!

Qbish · 14/04/2023 16:55

CordyLines · 14/04/2023 16:24

Brits seem to be raging that the POTUS went to Ireland and swerved the UK. That is where the sneering is coming from I think.

Well when you think about it the British colonised the East Coast of America until they were driven out. They were the invaders. The British colonised many other countries also, so have/had no desire to be anything other than the superior population they seem to think they are.

Immigrants and emigrants on the other hand were not colonisers, and in the case of the Irish particularly, went to US on coffin ships because the British sold what food the Irish could produce during the Great Famine back to Britain (Trevalyan's corn), and left the natives to either starve or leave.

There is a different dynamic involved in emigres than there is to those who didn't HAVE to emigrate i.e. were the overlords.

No wonder there is such a longing for ancestry, I think it is great to seek out your roots and have a rant as to why you are where you are. America has opened its arms to many people who needed it badly. Thank you America.

Ha ha ha. You'd best tell Northern Ireland that it's not in the UK any more, then!

And Biden bangs on about being Irish for votes. Just like all US Presidents do, if they can.

Qbish · 14/04/2023 16:56

Specifically, Democrat Presidents bang on about being Irish.

Qbish · 14/04/2023 16:57

Anyone remember Noraid? What a lovely US-Irish organisation that was, collecting money for the IRA.

Curseofthenation · 14/04/2023 17:01

There's nothing wrong with saying that you have Irish ancestors. It doesn't make you Irish.

If you have an Italian grandparent, you aren't 1/4 Italian either. You just have an Italian relative.

No one will judge an American for simply saying 'my ancestors come from Ireland'.

Divebar2021 · 14/04/2023 17:02

Who are the Brits “raging” that POTUS hasn’t visited ? I haven’t heard a single person I know even mention it in passing. I would personally say no one gives a shit.

Ozgirl75 · 14/04/2023 17:02

MissConductUS · 14/04/2023 16:51

For example, Ash Barty often talks of being a proud indigenous woman, but she is just as English as Indigenous (two grandparents English, one indigenous) but she never mentions her English background as important. I assume this is the same as in America, the British are the bad guys in the narrative

Not really. Any hard feelings from the American Revolution are over at this point. My husband's ancestry is mostly English. It's so common here that it's hardly worth talking about.

The part of New York I live in has a fascinating mix of place names. They're either Dutch, English, or Native American.

But being “Irish” American is very common too, yet an Irish American will make sure you know about it.
Also, the narrative might be different in America to Australia - the left wing press in Aus at the moment are keen to move away from most celebrations of anything to do with their British history, despite the fact that this is the history shared by the majority of the population.

CordyLines · 14/04/2023 17:03

Northern Ireland is in a fantastic situation now. Peace, and now prosperity due to the Protocol and quasi Single Market privileges. It will outpace the so called "mainland" soon once the snarlers get an injection of positivity!

Remembering39862 · 14/04/2023 17:06

Pallisers · 14/04/2023 16:39

America is a country of immigrants. There is a lot of pain in that fact. It wasn't all "america looks nice, lets move there and be americans" For many many people in the past they left family, friends, traditions, cultures and never saw them again. They were economic immigrants or fleeing pogroms or famines or war etc. It is any surprise that those immigrants would try to remember and honour their traditions?

Yeah, americans say "I'm italian" they don't actually mean they are Italian. They mean "we follow some Italian traditions, do the seven fishes on xmas eve, have pasta at every big occasion, will some day plan a trip to Italy to see where our great grandparents came from' They know they are american. They don't need brits to tell them that (despite apparently being just teenagers trying to keep up with the big older real adult countries in the world ffs)

I think Joe Biden gave the perfect opportunity for people to sneer at the Irish and at Americans - win/win. usually they have to chose.

And all that Irish americanism in politics has had a real benefit for Ireland - and for the UK. Thanks in part to american and irish american intervention, 10 years ago a civil war in the UK - that the UK seemed unable to stop and that caused untold suffering to UK subjects - ended

Sorry if I’m missing something but… What civil war did the UK narrowly avoid 10 years ago??

Anonymous48 · 14/04/2023 17:06

Qbish · 14/04/2023 16:56

Specifically, Democrat Presidents bang on about being Irish.

Can you name any republican presidents who were Irish American?

highfidelity · 14/04/2023 17:08

I don't think it's sneering per se, it's also something that is highly nuanced, particularly in terms of what kind of European heritage it is.

Also, and on another note, for some American, having a European heritage is code for being Jewish and having escaped Nazi persecution. So for them, it's more to do with anti-semitism that they're having to be so vague.

CordyLines · 14/04/2023 17:08

Most Irish Americans vote Democrat.

CordyLines · 14/04/2023 17:12

Anonymous48 · 14/04/2023 17:06

Can you name any republican presidents who were Irish American?

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Ronald Reagan visited Ireland and his ancestral town of Ballyporeen.

Qbish · 14/04/2023 17:12

Anonymous48 · 14/04/2023 17:06

Can you name any republican presidents who were Irish American?

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Ronal Reagan. He had more Irish roots than Clinton did!

Abra1t · 14/04/2023 17:13

CordyLines · 14/04/2023 16:24

Brits seem to be raging that the POTUS went to Ireland and swerved the UK. That is where the sneering is coming from I think.

Well when you think about it the British colonised the East Coast of America until they were driven out. They were the invaders. The British colonised many other countries also, so have/had no desire to be anything other than the superior population they seem to think they are.

Immigrants and emigrants on the other hand were not colonisers, and in the case of the Irish particularly, went to US on coffin ships because the British sold what food the Irish could produce during the Great Famine back to Britain (Trevalyan's corn), and left the natives to either starve or leave.

There is a different dynamic involved in emigres than there is to those who didn't HAVE to emigrate i.e. were the overlords.

No wonder there is such a longing for ancestry, I think it is great to seek out your roots and have a rant as to why you are where you are. America has opened its arms to many people who needed it badly. Thank you America.

He didn’t swerve the UK.