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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why is there so much sneering at Americans with European ancestry?

863 replies

BrBa · 14/04/2023 15:47

I don’t understand! I identify with all my ancestors whether they came as religious refugees or early colonisers, were already indigenous to the region or brought in as slaves.

Yours
Swiss, German, Native American North, Central and South, Sephardic, Irish, South East African, Scottish, Acadian/French, and English

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15
Evanna13 · 15/04/2023 12:15

Fuerza · 15/04/2023 12:02

I agree with posters saying it doesn't bother them how Americans identify. It's their way. Not the right way or the wrong way, just their way. Where I live, if an obviously mixed race kid opens their mouth and has a local accent, that's it, deal sealed, they're Irish. But those are our unwritten rules. Other countries have their own. So be it!

👏 👏

diflasu · 15/04/2023 12:16

Over and above Britain, particularly with the crazy way the British authorities are acting

I think the UK government is trying to get the DUP who are currently boycott of Stormont to soften their position - I think Sunak's recent N.I agreements they'd hoped would bring them back and it hasn't.

From few interviewers I've heard from former leader this visit gone down like a lead balloon - I'm not sure how true a reflection that is because it's going though UK media lens but I wonder if they are worried this visit it will further entrench the Unionist side.

Anotheronetwoone · 15/04/2023 12:34

@diflasu From few interviewers I've heard from former leader this visit gone down like a lead balloon

Surely you’re not taking anything Arlene says as representative! She had a hissy fit he didn’t have U.K. flags on his car! I think alot of British people aren’t aware of how off the wall the DUP are. They want to chain up swings in playgrounds on Sundays for crying out loud!

missinglalaland · 15/04/2023 12:39

Evanna13 · 15/04/2023 11:06

Yes, but your ancestors were not forced to leave because of famine and oppression. They did not create a community built on their culture and traditions. You were not brought up immersed in those cultures and traditions.
You might find it odd but you have a completely different experience. It is not odd in America or in Ireland. It is perfectly normal.

Actually a lot of poor English were forced to immigrate. They were among the first settlers who came to NA as indentured servants and endured incredible hardships breaking the ground for those who would come after.

I am not trying to lionise the “English” here, but it is unfair to cherry pick history to create a biased narrative.

belleager · 15/04/2023 12:41

The DUP is unlikely to get back around the table until after upcoming elections

Biden wasn't there to butter them up. He wanted to send a clear message to the DUP and potential voters that America is keen to invest in Northern Ireland, but that's not going to happen while the people's elected representatives there block the normal democratic functioning of the assembly there. If that went down badly with some, maybe voters will think about which parties have their interests at heart.

diflasu · 15/04/2023 12:42

Anotheronetwoone · 15/04/2023 12:34

@diflasu From few interviewers I've heard from former leader this visit gone down like a lead balloon

Surely you’re not taking anything Arlene says as representative! She had a hissy fit he didn’t have U.K. flags on his car! I think alot of British people aren’t aware of how off the wall the DUP are. They want to chain up swings in playgrounds on Sundays for crying out loud!

The DUP are the issue at the moment, the unionist side- US presidents focus on the nationalist side - I can take what Arlene says with a huge dose of salt and still see why there may be issues with US presidents visit.

Spybot · 15/04/2023 13:05

I live in the US and there is a fixation on heritage among some. On a similar note, what I find very amusing is when people go in ancestry.com and do their family trees like my FIL. He goes on about how is he related to a knight who is buried in Westminster Abbey. People latch onto the heritage that suits them but disregard all the ordinary ancestors who were cleaners, postmen, bus conductors and so on. I suppose it's natural to do that but ordinary folk are interesting to me too. My great grandad was a rag and bone man!

TrishM80 · 15/04/2023 13:15

LindorDoubleChoc · 14/04/2023 15:52

I'm not aware of any sneering.

I was (and probably still am) very angry at the American supporters of the IRA though. They were not living in the midst of a serious terrorist bombing campaign that claimed many innocent lives.

I can guarantee you that British taxpayers' funding of the bombing campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq, and continued supply of arms to the evil Saudi regime to commit genocide in Yemen, has cost far, far more innocent lives.

DownNative · 15/04/2023 13:34

LindorDoubleChoc · 14/04/2023 15:52

I'm not aware of any sneering.

I was (and probably still am) very angry at the American supporters of the IRA though. They were not living in the midst of a serious terrorist bombing campaign that claimed many innocent lives.

Ah, you're talking about NORAID which was a Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA front in the United States.

Too many east coast US citizens funded PSF/PIRA through NORAID. Bono, to give him credit, absolutely tore into the "Irish"-Americans on this one in a U2 concert in New York City not long after PSF/PIRA bombed the Enniskillen Remembrance Sunday ceremony in Nov 1987:

“I’ve had enough of Irish-Americans who haven’t been back to their country in 20 or 30 years, come up to me and talk about the resistance, the revolution back home. And the glory of the revolution. And the glory of dying for the revolution. F–k the revolution!

Where’s the glory in bombing a Remembrance Day parade of old-age pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day?”

Bono was right, you know. Those Americans certainly backed off from that kind of thing after 9/11.

East Coast US citizens who have some degree of Irish ancestry have some very funny ideas about Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Many of them are very out of touch with us and they more like speak of an Ireland that hasn't existed for a long time. Closer to an old Ireland their ancestors left for different reasons and at different times in history.

Here's a sample:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/generation-emigration/how-irish-america-sees-ireland-1.2834033

Ironic thing is that for most of them, their ancestors were Protestants known in the US as Scots-Irish, but known in Northern Ireland today as Ulster-Scots as well as Ulster-British. Yet some in the article above admitted they thought Protestants were "devils". Truth is, we in Northern Ireland are a complicated bunch where your religious background doesn't automatically tell you a thing about our political views. For example, I'm a Catholic, but definitely not a Nationalist or a Republican.

Anyway, I digress!

Seems to me most people in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland look at "Irish"-Americans with bemusement whilst being happy to accept US Dollars and Presidential visits. In other words, the identification as Irish-Americans isn't really taken too seriously.

How Irish-America sees Ireland

Ireland: a land of 100m people where abortion is legal and Protestants are ‘devils’. We visit Boston to meet Irish-Americans whose views of Ireland are a mix of confusion and piercing insight. Photographs by Kael Alford

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/generation-emigration/how-irish-america-sees-ireland-1.2834033

JarByTheDoor · 15/04/2023 13:36

Curseofthenation · 15/04/2023 12:08

I agree with all of this. Surely most Americans can read a room? They must realise quite quickly that saying 'I'm Scottish' to an actual Scottish person in Scotland is confusing and odd. It makes them look a bit silly. It's unlikely a Scottish person would judge an American for saying they have Scottish heritage.

If an American chooses to ignore the confusion they cause and when they state that they are Scottish on a holiday to Scotland then they deserve a bit of judgement. They probably don't care anyway.

I don't know why people are getting so upset that they may be mildly judged for this type of behaviour outside of the US. It's not as if a Scottish person is going to agressively shout at them for saying something that sounds a bit silly to them!

Yep — not to mention, being, for example, Italian-American is a unique and special thing, a particular branch on the Italian diasporic tree as well as an important part of the US cultural landscape and history, a specific culture or set of cultures that split off from the various regional Italian-Italian (for want of a better descriptor) cultures that its originators came from over a period of time (with occasional new infusions), with those features recombining somewhere else in different ways, resulting in the culture developing somewhat independently — inevitably retaining some features that weren't retained back in Italy, developing new features, being influenced by its new surroundings, until it's something diverse within itself, and while identifiably Italian in flavour, nonetheless distinct and something to be valued for its unique Italian-Americanness. As I'm sure most Italian-Americans feel, and intend to communicate when using the word "Italian" to describe themselves.

If you've got significant Italian ancestry, an Italian surname, have Italian family recipes, cultural practices, religious practices, terminology, or whatever else in your life that can be traced back to Italian cultural origins, then of course it can make perfect sense to think of a component of your identity as being Italian in a genuinely meaningful sense, and for there to be contexts where saying "I'm Italian" would be correctly interpreted as "I have Italian heritage which I identify with in at least some significant way".

But it makes sense that when you're in a context where "I'm Italian" would usually be taken to mean something like "I'm from Italy, I speak Italian, and my culture is at least partly that of [a region of, or a group within] present-day Italy" — like, on an international webforum discussing European politics, or something — it would be clearer to describe yourself as Italian-American, because that is a different thing to what most of the world would understand by the phrase "I'm Italian". Not inferior, just different.

People don't get mildly irritated by it because they think they're better than Americans because they're properly German/Irish/whatever, they get irked because the shorthand that works well between Americans for discussing heritage doesn't translate well for talking to anyone else, so it can look like the American person is trying to claim an identity that doesn't belong to them.

It's not even that big a deal, that a few Americans occasionally discuss their heritage in ways that come across as a bit amusing or rude or unusual or whatever, to people living in some other countries. It's just a funny quirk that people have noticed some Americans occasionally have. People from other countries, including the UK, Ireland, Italy, etc., also often have particular quirks that others will notice are more common among people from there, and that will get commented on and maybe laughed at. I suppose it can feel more socially acceptable, or at least less risky, to comment and joke about quirks that Americans (and Brits, for that matter) have than about those of other nationalities, so maybe it could feel like Americans are uniquely targeted for their little foibles, but when I see joking about the way American individuals discuss their heritage, it doesn't usually look to me like vicious targeted sneering from people who hate Americans, just commenting on a minor thing people have noticed some American people sometimes do that seems funny or a bit weird.

DownNative · 15/04/2023 13:37

TrishM80 · 15/04/2023 13:15

I can guarantee you that British taxpayers' funding of the bombing campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq, and continued supply of arms to the evil Saudi regime to commit genocide in Yemen, has cost far, far more innocent lives.

Odd how you've not mentioned the United States of America in relation to Afghanistan and Iraq there.

Some might well point out that the US is the single biggest military aggressor in our time....🤷‍♂️

gloriousg · 15/04/2023 13:38

Yes it's ridiculous to describe yourself as "African American", "Irish American", "Italian American", they are all just American and most of them now have no connection to those countries, just some distant ancestor if that.

DownNative · 15/04/2023 13:52

proppy · 14/04/2023 16:07

@Anonymous48 so what Irish traditions & customs would Irish Americans uphold?

Well, I'm sure a lot of those Americans would tell you that corned beef and cabbage is an Irish tradition they uphold.

Except....it really isn't!

Turns out this is a Jewish thing that the descendants of Irish emigrants started in the New World. Historically, corned beef and cabbage is not remotely associated with the Island of Ireland.

Neither is green beer or even those St Patrick's Day parades which are both American cultural inventions that became popular in the British Isles from the 1990s onwards.

I did read a study once that concluded most Irish-Americans identify that way NOT in relation to the island of Ireland, but to a relative before them who was Irish. A way of keeping their memory alive.

That would explain their out of date views of the island as well. If I can find it, I'll post it.

LuluBlakey1 · 15/04/2023 13:55

proppy · 14/04/2023 16:07

@Anonymous48 so what Irish traditions & customs would Irish Americans uphold?

I think it's mainly in Northern States. They have huge St Patrick's Day celebrations in New York, Irish association groups in many jobs eg NYPD, New York Firefighters, Irish-American political pressure organisations, Irish-American fund-raising organisations, sporting institutions, Irish-American catholic organisations, hospitals, children organisations, universities, colleges and schools supported financially by I-A religious organisations. There are I-A social clubs I think most of the cultures/traditions would be based on religion, sport (baseball and dancing particularly), and music , apart from St Patrick's Day.

Mendholeai · 15/04/2023 13:58

Conversely, and quite amusngly, Americans think we Brits are exotic, and somehow more learned and knowledgeable. 😂

LuluBlakey1 · 15/04/2023 14:03

I don't find it completely ridiculous. There were millions of Irish people (from a small population) who went to America. I think the link is felt from both countries.

I consider myself English but am aware of and interested in my Irish great-grandparents - 4 of the 8- and would like to know more than I have been able to find out, particularly about the social history. I have been to the bits of Ireland they came from, just to see what it's like. I don't identify as Irish but my surname was distinctly Irish and often commented on as being so, before I married DH. Their religion, customs and traditions were still felt in my family until my father died.

Goldenbear · 15/04/2023 14:13

Fuerza · 15/04/2023 12:02

I agree with posters saying it doesn't bother them how Americans identify. It's their way. Not the right way or the wrong way, just their way. Where I live, if an obviously mixed race kid opens their mouth and has a local accent, that's it, deal sealed, they're Irish. But those are our unwritten rules. Other countries have their own. So be it!

Does Ireland have any issues at all with embracing diversity in comparison to it's EU counterparts, does the U.S have any race relation problems or is it just the British?

TrishM80 · 15/04/2023 14:21

DownNative · 15/04/2023 13:37

Odd how you've not mentioned the United States of America in relation to Afghanistan and Iraq there.

Some might well point out that the US is the single biggest military aggressor in our time....🤷‍♂️

Yes indeed, the US, like the UK, has been a huge exporter of death and destruction globally.

But I singled out Britain specifically in my response to that poster, purely for the reason that British people are unqualified to moralise to anyone about "innocent lives". The UK Exchequer still profits hugely from arms exports to despotic and genocidal regimes.

MissConductUS · 15/04/2023 14:29

Mendholeai · 15/04/2023 13:58

Conversely, and quite amusngly, Americans think we Brits are exotic, and somehow more learned and knowledgeable. 😂

True. It's utter madness, I know. 😁

We get loads of British tourists in NYC; they are our favorite group overall.

Qbish · 15/04/2023 14:35

TrishM80 · 15/04/2023 13:15

I can guarantee you that British taxpayers' funding of the bombing campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq, and continued supply of arms to the evil Saudi regime to commit genocide in Yemen, has cost far, far more innocent lives.

The British public didn't choose to fund those campaigns. NORAID donators chose to fund the IRA.

StephanieSuperpowers · 15/04/2023 14:39

Qbish · 15/04/2023 14:35

The British public didn't choose to fund those campaigns. NORAID donators chose to fund the IRA.

It's a shame the British public weren't interested in what was happening in NI, really. Just think - it could have all been stopped before it got to that point.

Goldenbear · 15/04/2023 14:39

CordyLines · 15/04/2023 10:54

I understand, and I did say "those who voted for it" in my post.

Yes but your hyperbolic comments depict the British as English (for a start), xenophobic, inward looking, racist, royalist and Anglo - Saxon that have only married or partnered with fellow Anglo-Saxons as this is convenient for your argument. The reality is 48% of the population didn't vote to leave, my wedding was 2 days following the vote to leave the EU and it was overcast by the outcome. My marriage to Jewish man with an Irish surname of which my DC have now. The population of London alone is greater the Scotland so yes of course it is most likely that the votes to leave the EU would have and were made by the English, of you look at the Map for that vote of 60% in much of the North east - strangely this is the area my DH's Gran moved to and settled as a baby from Ireland. In the south where we live the vote was not wanting to leave. London/south east is huge and diverse.

Goldenbear · 15/04/2023 14:48

TrishM80 · 15/04/2023 14:21

Yes indeed, the US, like the UK, has been a huge exporter of death and destruction globally.

But I singled out Britain specifically in my response to that poster, purely for the reason that British people are unqualified to moralise to anyone about "innocent lives". The UK Exchequer still profits hugely from arms exports to despotic and genocidal regimes.

I don't know about that the 'British' are made up of a huge diverse range of people who can absolutely moralise about 'innocent lives'. What does British mean to you as you sound like you have a narrow view of that make-up.

TrishM80 · 15/04/2023 14:48

Qbish · 15/04/2023 14:35

The British public didn't choose to fund those campaigns. NORAID donators chose to fund the IRA.

So successive British govts who pursued these policies got elected by accident?

DownNative · 15/04/2023 14:56

TrishM80 · 15/04/2023 14:21

Yes indeed, the US, like the UK, has been a huge exporter of death and destruction globally.

But I singled out Britain specifically in my response to that poster, purely for the reason that British people are unqualified to moralise to anyone about "innocent lives". The UK Exchequer still profits hugely from arms exports to despotic and genocidal regimes.

But you're attempting to use the Tu Quoque Fallacy or the appeal to hypocrisy. Fallacies are errors I reasoning and logic.

Relying on that is not really a valid argument.

I'll add that the US Government also didn't take a favourable attitude to NORAID. In short, that poster is perfectly valid in feeling anger at ignorant East Coast Americans for funding PSF/PIRA through NORAID.

Myself even more so since they were helping give them the means to destroy my country, land and people.

EC US ignorant attitudes also was a factor that enabled PSF/PIRA to fight on once we'd defeated them in their insurgent phrase by 1974. With that help and Libya's, PSF/PIRA turned into a cell structure which was also eventually defeated.

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