Junior doctors

[IamSuperTired]

Before people suggest it, I'm not intending to bash junior doctors. They work incredibly hard in a massively under funded NHS. I was also surprised recently to hear they earn less than I thought.

I am posting to ask if anyone knows how long it takes to go from junior doctor to a more senior level where the pay is better? And what's the career path from medical degree to the grade above junior doc?

I ask because other professions, even in healthcare, also get paid pretty poorly at the lower grades but tolerate it because they will eventually reach v large salaries. Eg. Psychologists do their degree, then usually MSc, then often have to work in band 4 jobs for 3 or 4 years to gain the pre-requisite experience, before moving onto another 3 years doctorate level training (is this equivalent to junior doc?) paid at band 6. So in total it takes them (on average) about 8 years before they reach band 7 NHS wage. Other professions are similar.

I'm asking because I'm trying to work out whether the pay is a little unfair or a lot unfair! Given potential future earnings and when they might be reaped! Just trying to educate myself really. Not sure what the AIBU is :) sorry!

I’m not a doctor, my 10 year post grad earning potential is over £100k and nobody’s life depends on me. In fact, I frequently remind myself that no matter how bad my day is, no one will die.

Future earning potential should only be a minor factor. Anyone we are trusting with our lives should get paid significantly more than someone in a finance grad role.

Junior doctors have had their pay go down in real terms by 26%

MPs have had their pay rise in real terms by 40%

says it all really.

Sounds like an illustration of doctors not being able to live near hospitals in high cost areas like central London, probably where a lot of the specialisms are.

It would help enormously if there were (more?) opportunities to take these posts in other large city hospitals, where you could probably get a studio, or even a 1/2 bed, for half that rent, so could live quite comfortably on £38k. The whole system is broken and concentrating too much of it in a tiny overcrowded corner of the country helps no-one.

That is a significant lack of understanding between the two roles.
AHPs can take on many different roles and there are many of them: sonographers, reporting radiographers, nurse endoscopists, cardiac nurses etc. These roles are relatively protocol driven and can be straightforward if there is a single pathology - do an endoscopy, see polyp, do a biopsy, job done. Who is going to follow up the results, refer to the cancer MDM, report the staging CTs, do the surgery, prescribe the chemo, plan the radiotherapy, manage the treatment side effects?
And that is just for a single pathology. Patients often have multiple conditions that have to be co-managed. AHP with two years of training plus AI isn’t going to cut it. If you need to extend their training, well you are heading to a medical degree by another name.

No disrespect but this is cleaning staff pay & I'm angry

Seriously?

How does the route to GP differ to the one to be a consultant?

RunningFromInsanity · Yesterday 23:56
The thread where the op posted her pay slip went from about £1600 per month to £2700 per month in 3 years.

(A pay rise I could only dream of)”

Does your job involve saving lives?

Genuine question why do experienced doctors/consultants earn so much more than junior doctors? Would a possible solution be to reduce the gap I.e pay junior doctors more but reduce the opportunity to earn very big salaries

While this is obviously dreadful and incredibly sad, it doesn't change anything (and I know/knew a junior doctor who took her own life) unless you are suggesting pay increases for everyone at the early stage of their careers incase they die due to physical or mental health reasons?

Also indemnity insurance needs to be paid as Crown Indemnity not sufficient.

I don't think 100k is a large salary for a consultant with so much knowledge, experience and responsibility.

And £100k takes a few years to reach.

Doctors pay 9.8% of their salary as pension contribution. It's no longer the gold plated one of the past. They also have to pay off their massive student loans, GMC registration, exam fees, indemnity. They start on £14.09 an hour, based on a 40 hour week - no one works less than 48 paid hours, v often it's 72. Not through choice, but because the rota gaps are huge. From day 1 they can hold the hospital bleep at night and be the first doctor at any emergency.
Their pay increases for 2 years and then there are exams to see if they can get into speciality training - there are not enough places so this is not a right (even though there are massive gaps in the number of doctors the number of 'training' places is still fixed). Eventually, after 10-15 years (maybe more if you want a family) you might make consultant. And earn £80,000. During these years you will have had to move area several times in order to secure the training places available.
Instead of this our medics can go abroad and earn 3x their salary for a 35 hour week. But more importantly they will be able to offer the care they trained for. The NHS is at a critical state in its history because if these strikes don't change things it won't exist anymore. Staff shortages are critical (because wages and conditions) are rubbish. It's almost like someone is planning the demise of the NHS in favour of a private model.

This

when people question nurses’ or doctors’ pay, talk about ‘vocation’ and not doing it for the money, that they get a good salary when on £45k, I ask - when was the last time you put a child in a body bag?

Other things that could help would be reduction of other costs for those who remain in NHS work.

Eg writing off some (or all!) of student loans, free parking, housing allowances for high cost areas (or even tied housing, whatever happened to the 'nurses homes' that used to be associated with many hospitals? - if there's a cohort of junior doctors who regularly move around training posts, then there should be affordable and suitably located flats available for them to use while working in particular hospitals - possibly a bit like student halls, but also allowing for the fact that many are 30 something families, so need family accommodation).

Plus payment of professional fees/indeminity insurance etc. There's so much that could, and should be done, to make the working conditions and pay better for medical staff, that just isn't, and addressing these could go a long way to improve recruitment and retention, make working conditions better for doctors.

There would also be a benefit of reducing the ridiculous situation where some shortages are addressed using bank/agency staff that cost the NHS so much more.

I would never encourage anyone to become a doctor now. Even for NHS consultant pay. The jumping through hoops, last-minute oncall rotas, being moved every six months with barely any notice makes a junior’s life hell.

And then the amount of responsibility placed at consultants’ feet, the indemnity charges, lack of respect from
management etc have made it rubbish. I will stick it out till the end. But nobody should consider it the good career it used to be.

@chilliplant634 it’s not me that needs the reality check; its him! I’m not struggling to rent a shitty studio flat, I own a fairly large family home.

If something isn’t working for him he needs to change it. Many people on here get told to adjust their expectations. To move to a cheaper area and have a long commute or to change jobs if their current lifestyle isn’t sustainable.

Again, these are all things he could’ve considered when deciding which degree / career to go for. It’s no secret the exams, the fees and the commuting are requirements of his desired role.

I don't understand why so many people are focused on the salary progression.

The starting salary is woeful. It's actually embarrassing to be in a G7 country that pays qualified doctors so low.

As a comparison, I'm a senior administrator in local government. My take home is only about £100 less than a junior doctor just starting out. I don't need any specialist training or years at university for my job. Nor am I responsible for life and death decision making.

And my parking is free.

Solidarity with the junior doctors.

Would love to know how to commute from Southampton to Newcastle daily. This is the move my friends DS has had to make as that's where the NHS told him to go for next position.

@DenimSkirtLove it is still a good career in other countries and unfortunately that's where 80% of the current F1s seem to be aiming for. V v sad.

Oh, I see, a 2 hours commute to be able to afford to live would add so much to the quality of life of a doctor. As long as they can leave on the dot when shift ends, you might be on to something. Honestly, people get so stuck on pay and forget these are your brothers, your children.

Don’t make me laugh about AI. Who’s gonna be the ultimate person responsible? “Doctor informed” and the AI washes its cyber hands of the encounter.

It’s depressing.

And people who are getting their healthcare from the private sector will end up being affected too. Private healthcare depends on qualified consultants. If the juniors are jumping ship, then there will be no private consultants to see either. Well not UK-trained.

Do we want this?

Maybe you can't read very well. I already explained- you can't just decide to move across the country. He is in the middle of a training programme. He is planning to leave. We are setting up a side business and if it works out he will quit medicine and we will work on it together full time.

Oh, I hope you don't need a stent putting in or an angiogram any time in your life. Drs like him are leaving in droves. But I suppose you're one of the ones who'd rather be treated by a PA and an AI robot

rolls eyes

A GP is a consultant in General Practice. GP is a specialty.