Page 5 | To think this cannot be right?

Coppercreek1 · 2023-04-12T13:15:29+00:00

DS is 9 years old and has severe autism, he attends a special school and in the holidays he occasionally attends a SEND play scheme, where I pay for a 1 on 1 to help him. It was noted when he started going that he needs promoting to use the toilet, but otherwise rarely needs assistance, I was assured this was ok. I dropped him off this morning, 1.5 hours later I get a phone call that DS has had a poo accident, and that they had tried to encourage him to clean himself up but no one there is insured to help him so I needed to come and clean him up, I advised I was 25 or so minutes away but that I would get there ASAP. On arrival, I found a staff member holding the door to the disabled toilet shut as my son banged the door from the other side, so they shut him in the bathroom alone the entire time. He had made a good attempt to clean himself up but he is non verbal and disabled! He had a small smear on his hands and feet and the tiniest bit on his butt. I immediately cleaned and helped him dress and was just in such shock I just walked out with him and took him home. Is this normal routine for a playscheme that is aimed at disabled children?! While their policies state they do not offer routine personal care nowhere does it state that in an emergency they won't step in for the well-being of the child. He has attended this scheme in the summer holidays and Christmas holidays and earlier in the Easter holidays and they have never had to provide personal care so clearly they knew it was a one off, bit of a bad belly?! Surely common sense should prevail and couple of baby wipes could have sorted it without locking a naked child in a toilet for 40 minutes rather than help him. Surely they should have someone on sight insured Incase of emergencies like this. wIBU to complain?

Singularity82 · 12/04/2023 22:35

whatsyourpoison12 · 12/04/2023 22:34

I imagine its to prevent the smearing as its technically hazardous waste. not fair to lock him away but I can see why they did what they did

I genuinely honestly can’t see any scenario where this would be ok. It’s inhumane. I can’t “see why they did that” at all.

Original poster

Coppercreek1 · 12/04/2023 22:42

ItchycooParkCult · 12/04/2023 22:30

I work with disabled kids and adults. Regardless of insurance/policy I’d have donned my gloves and helped clean the shit off your child because leaving it, especially on the face is a health hazard and just bloody mean.

Even if all I had to do was stand there and support and say ‘hey, look in the mirror you’ve got poop here use some soap’ etc and point out all the spots to be cleaned. Then call the cleaning team to clean after the child had left the room.

id have left the door wide open if appropriate (child fully clothed) or get a chaperone for me and the child.

Hit lost property or their spares for clean clothes.

I have a feeling OP this may have been a case of staffing issues and lack of training more than ‘insurance’. I bet by ‘insurance’ they meant they didn’t have the extra floating staff member to act as chaperone/support for the bathroom that’s on them and they should have that spare staff member for emergencies, any emergency.

When I arrived his 1 to 1 was sat behind a desk chilling and 2 members off staff were at the toilet door, so 3 adults were already there and not with the rest of the small group of children they have so presumably in ratio?

It took me about 1-2 minutes to sort him, gave him a wipe and told him to wipe his bum, gave him another to wipe his front, then I washed his hands and face and feet (they offered me a baby bath for the feet? Bit random)

The clothes they gave me when I realized there was none In the toilet was a spare pair of trousers and his own Tshirt he had had on, so his Tshirt was not soiled.

I apprecaite they didn't want him running around spreading faeces everywhere but to be honest he had wiped himself well enough that it wouldnt have been an issue to just tell him to put some trousers on and carry on with his day IYSWIM, he wasn't sparkling but hardly covered down there with crap, I've had a message from school a couple of times saying he'd had a looser than usual bowel and wiping wasn't 100% so give him a a proper clean when you get home etc

On a day to day bases he does his business, wipes and moves on, it's not like he is incontinent.

OP posts:

titchy · 12/04/2023 22:43

not in a school setting, as your are insured by your union, but outside of that, yes, it is strongly advised, and in some work places compulsory

Not true. Plenty of school staff are not union members. Most nursery staff are not union members. The organisation providing the staff will need to be insured, not the individual. If the charity doesn't have decent insurance for their staff, public liability etc, that is very concerning.

You may have had to have your own as a foster carer as you weren't technically employed by anyone.

apapuchi · 12/04/2023 22:48

This is awful. I have a nine year old non-verbal autistic son. He attends a 2:1 holiday scheme for non-verbal autistic children and I'm not sure what they'd do here as he always does his business after school or clubs in the late afternoon. However, anyone can have a bad tummy or an accident.

If they had locked my son in he would CERTAINLY have turned the taps on, probably wrecked the place with toilet roll and water everywhere. I wouldn't feel bad in this situation and even less so since they requested a 1:1 so he couldn't turn on taps. Ridiculous. If, for some reason, they really couldn't assist with personal care then two of them should have been in there supervising him with clothes on or some covering and making sure he didn't do the dreadful turning on of taps that they'd previously said necessitated 1:1 above their normal ratios. How dare they shut him in there alone as if he was some kind of raging bull?

I'd be contacting those higher up, if it's a charity-run thing then those in charge or in charge of activities. Get your money back first, that's the least of it. Then make sure they know that others with vulnerable children like yours will find out about this and be equally horrified. I am so, so sorry this happened to him and to you. We take huge risks and leaps of faith and courage to leave our children with others when we know their challenges and needs. This is bloody awful and just shows a lack of care and humanity and of the kind of outside the box thinking you need when caring for those with additional needs to keep them safe, secure, comfortable and happy.

saraclara · 12/04/2023 22:52

The organisation providing the staff will need to be insured, not the individual. If the charity doesn't have decent insurance for their staff, public liability etc, that is very concerning.

Exactly. There is no way that a charity that large could overlook that kind of insurance. Nor would they be allowed to run such a programme without it.

It was a (very weak) excuse, that's all.

Report to the LADO at your local authority, and to the charity itself. You might need to call their head office first to let them know that you have to report safeguarding and abuse issue, so that you get the name of the person you need to report it to..

Tessabelle74 · 12/04/2023 22:53

You are NOT allowed to do that to anyone, especially not a child! Holding the door shut is imprisonment and a massive safeguarding red flag! If he had poo on his hands they should have helped him wash them and waited with him for you for the rest of the clean up. I'd be wanting heads to roll of I were you!

Chipolata12 · 12/04/2023 22:54

I have no idea what country/era/planet this person is from, I worked in special schools for 3 years for an agency. Provided personal care etc. never had insurance nor hep vaccines

I also employ care staff for a disabled relative who requires personal care and whilst I as an employer need to have public liability insurance the staff are not required to have their own insurance or any hepatitis immunisations

Chipolata12 · 12/04/2023 22:56

Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 21:52

not in a school setting, as your are insured by your union, but outside of that, yes, it is strongly advised, and in some work places compulsory

There isn't a specific name, as you can get it through any provider, although there are some that specialise.

I was a foster carer, and have to be insured against legal action being taken against me for the rest of my life - I paid a one off amount of around £400 some years ago. I did a lot of personal care, both in my own home and in special schools, and I was already hep B vaccinated, so turned down a booster shot, but had to have a blood test to prove my immunity instead. It was a condition of employment at the school

This is a different setting, so I don't know the details, and I am not sure hep B can be enforced these days, and what difference it makes to the employees who are not immunised. I would imagine the employer would not want to be seen to put staff at risk

I am not condoning how your son was treated, but I am trying to explain the broader implications, which others might not know about - yes, clean up a boy today, but if you are not insured, you could still be worrying about this 30 years down the line.

They might not have felt they could clean him up, and they might have feared contaminating themselves, but it should have been handled differently. They could have put a row of 3 chairs in the bathroom wrapped him in a large towel and sat him in the middle chair, sat on either side of him and talked to him, and hopefully been able to restrain him with a gentle hand on either arm if it became necessary. I know it can be very difficult to contain an soiled autistic child who has little awareness of the implications of spreading the soiling around, but he should not have been distressed like this.

Most of all, they should have a plan in place, and know what to do - it cant be such and out of the ordinary happening in settings like this

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I have no idea what country/era/planet this person is from, I worked in special schools for 3 years for an agency. Provided personal care etc. never had insurance nor hep vaccines

I also employ care staff for a disabled relative who requires personal care and whilst I as an employer need to have public liability insurance the staff are not required to have their own insurance or any hepatitis immunisations

Velvian · 12/04/2023 22:58

I'm so so sorry for you and your DS, @Coppercreek1 that sounds really upsetting. I don't have anything useful to add, but I would be shocked and upset to find my 9yo DS in that situation.

SorePaw · 12/04/2023 22:59

Coppercreek1 · 12/04/2023 18:25

I honestly cried the whole way home.

His understanding level is too low to know what was going on or why he was there.

All the way home he cried saying 'stuck, can't get out'

He wasn't crying when I got there. But was butt naked, alone, in a bathroom... His clothes weren't in there so he couldnt have even got dressed even if he wanted to. Just no dignity for him at all

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@Coppercreek1 Poor little DS. How was he this evening?

complain? Abso fucking lately. As far up the food chain as you can get. You don't lock kids in anywhere, let alone toilets, alone & naked, it's making my heart hurt just thinking about him.

don't tell me they're not insured to instruct him to wipe his hands & feet & the little bit on his bum.

There's no way I could leave a child like that for 40 minutes, insurance be fucked. Hands & feet are hardly 'personal areas' and a quick swipe across his bum cheek, help him dress, thoroughly was his hands & back out to play. Or isolate (from other children) if they thought he was unwell, but not isolate from all of the adults.

which absolute cunt (a word I rarely use) locked a (non verbal), disabled, child in a toilet and held the door closed.

Fuck my days, heads would be rolling.

why was his TA not helping him????

Poor wee mite 😘

Ophy83 · 12/04/2023 23:00

The point about needing insurance in case allegations are made years later makes no sense - by locking him in the toilet and causing him distress they are more likely to be sued than if they had assisted.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 12/04/2023 23:01

I have no idea of the legalities or anything - but your poor boy. He must have been so cold and scared locked in the toilet. I'm not surprised you cried all the way home.

Yes, I would be complaining. How horrible.

JudgeRudy · 12/04/2023 23:27

Whilst I sympathise with this situation I'd say it's not the responsibility of the 'playworkers' to give personal care. He had poo on his hands, feet and bum. That's a bit more than 'needs promting'. I get this wasn't his usual behaviour but let's imagine eg you're in the office and Sandra throws up everywhere. Would you expect to clean her vomit up, or maybe instruct someone else to do so? It's the same thing.
I do think locking him in was a bit extreme, but arguably maybe he couldn't be trusted to not get poo everywhere.
Ultimately if you feel the care he recieved was insufficient you were right to pull him out. Pass on your thoughts to management by email for consideration

saraclara · 12/04/2023 23:33

but let's imagine eg you're in the office and Sandra throws up everywhere. Would you expect to clean her vomit up, or maybe instruct someone else to do so? It's the same thing.

You can't be serious. This is the most extreme example of false equivalence that I've ever read.

You are not responsible for Canberra in any way. She is a capable adult colleague, not a 9 year old, non-verbal disabled child who has been placed in your care.

saraclara · 12/04/2023 23:33

Canberra?! Sandra!

Sugarfree23 · 12/04/2023 23:39

JudgeRudy · 12/04/2023 23:27

Whilst I sympathise with this situation I'd say it's not the responsibility of the 'playworkers' to give personal care. He had poo on his hands, feet and bum. That's a bit more than 'needs promting'. I get this wasn't his usual behaviour but let's imagine eg you're in the office and Sandra throws up everywhere. Would you expect to clean her vomit up, or maybe instruct someone else to do so? It's the same thing.
I do think locking him in was a bit extreme, but arguably maybe he couldn't be trusted to not get poo everywhere.
Ultimately if you feel the care he recieved was insufficient you were right to pull him out. Pass on your thoughts to management by email for consideration

You can't be serious.
A child gets covered in poo and you think its acceptable to lock them in a toilet until their mum gets there.
Even a NT 9 year old would probably struggle to clean themselves up in a public toilet if they had an accident. The adults around them have a duty of care to support them

mamabear715 · 12/04/2023 23:40

I am shocked, @Coppercreek1
I've never heard anything so inhumane & awful.
Personally I wouldn't be taking the poor little thing back, but I suppose it's useful for social aspects.
I just can't believe anyone could act this way. :-(

Ames85 · 12/04/2023 23:53

I work with children and my own children have SEN. How awful for you and your child for him to be treated that way. They at the least could have wiped the non intimate areas

WhateverYouSayEh · 12/04/2023 23:56

JudgeRudy · 12/04/2023 23:27

Whilst I sympathise with this situation I'd say it's not the responsibility of the 'playworkers' to give personal care. He had poo on his hands, feet and bum. That's a bit more than 'needs promting'. I get this wasn't his usual behaviour but let's imagine eg you're in the office and Sandra throws up everywhere. Would you expect to clean her vomit up, or maybe instruct someone else to do so? It's the same thing.
I do think locking him in was a bit extreme, but arguably maybe he couldn't be trusted to not get poo everywhere.
Ultimately if you feel the care he recieved was insufficient you were right to pull him out. Pass on your thoughts to management by email for consideration

Jesus Christ.

It's nothing like a colleague vomiting in the office at all, does the colleague in you comparison have special needs too? If you locked your colleague with special needs in a room like these people did with this little boy you'd find yourself in trouble with the law.

If you're talking about a made up person who is neurotypical and fully able to advocate for themselves and doesn't need colleagues to help her change clothes it's not comparable in anyway at all!

JudgeRudy · 13/04/2023 00:12

WhateverYouSayEh · 12/04/2023 23:56

Jesus Christ.

It's nothing like a colleague vomiting in the office at all, does the colleague in you comparison have special needs too? If you locked your colleague with special needs in a room like these people did with this little boy you'd find yourself in trouble with the law.

If you're talking about a made up person who is neurotypical and fully able to advocate for themselves and doesn't need colleagues to help her change clothes it's not comparable in anyway at all!

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I've actually agreed that locking him up was extreme (and maybe not necessary).
No, my imaginary work colleague does not have special needs, but let's say she's ill and can't do it herself.
I wasn't actually comparing work colleague to the kid I was comparing other office staff to playgroup workers.....neither have been trained or employed or expecting to clear up bio fluids so should not be expected to do so. Of course if they want to help fine.

saraclara · 13/04/2023 00:21

I wasn't actually comparing work colleague to the kid I was comparing other office staff to playgroup workers.....neither have been trained or employed or expecting to clear up bio fluids so should not be expected to do so. Of course if they want to help fine.

Anyone employed to care for disabled children is absolutely expected to be prepared to clear up bio fluids. Who else do you think should do it when the child in their care can't?

Do you have young children? Do you expect to clear up their vomit from the floor if they're sick at school? Or for them to clear up their own?

saraclara · 13/04/2023 00:24

For the record. @JudgeRudy as a teacher in a special school, I've cleared up any amount of vomit, changed and cleaned up children who've soiled themselves, and had snot wiped all over me. You name it, I've cleaned it off children (and off myself - I always kept a spare change of clothes in school). And of course my TAs had to do it even more often. It comes with the territory when you cae for children who cannot manage their own personal care and hygiene.

DonnaRix · 13/04/2023 00:28

Fuck me. I think I’d have decked someone who was preventing my 9 year old from exiting the bathroom.

awful.

DonnaRix · 13/04/2023 00:30

JudgeRudy · 12/04/2023 23:27

Whilst I sympathise with this situation I'd say it's not the responsibility of the 'playworkers' to give personal care. He had poo on his hands, feet and bum. That's a bit more than 'needs promting'. I get this wasn't his usual behaviour but let's imagine eg you're in the office and Sandra throws up everywhere. Would you expect to clean her vomit up, or maybe instruct someone else to do so? It's the same thing.
I do think locking him in was a bit extreme, but arguably maybe he couldn't be trusted to not get poo everywhere.
Ultimately if you feel the care he recieved was insufficient you were right to pull him out. Pass on your thoughts to management by email for consideration

The fuck is the matter with you??

AllOfThemWitches · 13/04/2023 00:40

saraclara · 13/04/2023 00:24

For the record. @JudgeRudy as a teacher in a special school, I've cleared up any amount of vomit, changed and cleaned up children who've soiled themselves, and had snot wiped all over me. You name it, I've cleaned it off children (and off myself - I always kept a spare change of clothes in school). And of course my TAs had to do it even more often. It comes with the territory when you cae for children who cannot manage their own personal care and hygiene.

So pleased people like you exist