AIBU - Transgender 'athletes'

[HappyHippo1234]

To start off - I have no issue with trans people at all. The only issue I have is transgender females (male to female) competing in women sports.

Yes, they may have been taking hormones and they have lost some muscle and gained some fat. But, they have stronger bones and bigger spines, hands, feet, lungs and hearts. Basically trans females have an advantage over biological females.

What I absolutely HATE about the situation, it the trans athletes attitude, it honestly disgusts me. Did they never take biology as teenagers or learn about puberty?
For them to sit there with their wins and say that they have no advantage just p*sses me off. Are they stupid or ignorant? There's no way they don't know they have an advantage. Do they not realise they are taking wins away from girls and woman who have spent their whole lives training for a sport only for it to be taken away from someone who was a mediocre male.

Look at Lia Thomas, she was somewhere in the 400-500th best college male swimmer or something like that. She is now trans and BAM she is number 1 and winning everything.

It just annoys me to no end. Especially the trans woman who you can tell that they KNOW they have a major advantage and are cheating the system and then sit there with a SMUG GRIN on their faces. I mean every Caitlyn Jenner said it's wrong.

Sorry for the rant. My DD15 has been upset all week as on the weekend another girl beat all the girls by a huge stretch in her cross country meet (her team is usually 1st but were bumped to 2nd). At first everyone thought this girl was great, until one mom heard the group the girl was with discussing the results and how it was great for the team that this girl came out as trans and was boosting their results etc! Fair to say that news travelled quickly and there were MANY parents complaining to officials. But surprise surprise nothing was done about it. So at the award giving ceremony everyone waited as everything up to 1st place was given out and as soon as they got to the 1st team, I would say 95% of people walked away. It felt harsh but necessary!
(Also the girl was 16 and had only recently transitioned from what we could gather and when you actually looked at her you could tell she had gone through at least some portion of male puberty). Again nothing against the girl just don't think she could compete.

And to get around all these discrimination lawsuits, I think they should change the categories! Have an XX category and an XY category, that why there is no debate and no 'discrimination' as you can't identify as XY if you are XX! (And then also have an open category where trans, non-binary etc. can compete).

SORRY THAT WAS SO LONG. NOW FOR THE VOTE:

YABU - Trans (XX) women are woman and should be allowed to compete with XY women, even though they scientifically have an advantage.

YANBU - They will always have an advantage and so should not compete with XY women.

If societal rule number one is that every individual should be able to compete in their chosen sport somewhere (the inclusion principle).

And male people CAN compete in male competitions.

It’s just that they WANT to be allowed to compete against women - even knowing they have an unfair advantage.

It’s not hard to understand. They’re not being excluded. They can still compete. They just don’t get to dictate the terms under which they compete.

As for pretending this is about inclusion. 🙄 what about all the women and girls pushed out because men and boys would rather win in the female category?

I think there have been several posts claiming MN is anti trans, hate etc

@MarshaBradyo because they're making unfounded accusations, that's why

Both the Gender Recognition Act and The Equality Act recognise sports as a sex affected activity, and protect single sex sports.
This isn't a conversation we should need to have.

That's why Kemi's trying to change the wording to include 'biological', so people can stop pretending they're a woman.

What’s unfounded?

Helle you are an absolute force of nature in these discussions and incredibly articulate with it.

I don't think even you can get some posters to engage and see the injustice of this.

@MarshaBradyo read the first post you quoted. Jesus Christ.

YANBU.

If it weren't already obvious, we know trans women/girls aren't actually women/girls, because if they were, nobody would care about their feelings or identities, and society wouldn't be bending over backwards to accommodate them.

Sport is such a clear example of this.

Transgender MtF athletes are allowed to compete in female categories after suppressing their testosterone for a year or two, even though they still have a far higher testosterone level than any female athlete, and even though this doesn't remove the physical advantages of having gone through male privilege.

Meanwhile, transgender FtM athletes who are on testosterone cannot compete in either male or female categories, despite the fact that the testosterone still doesn't give them an advantage over male athletes, because synthetic testosterone is a banned substance.

So transgender MtF athletes get to have their cake and eat it (hormones AND validation AND competing in women's sports despite having a clear unfair advantage) whereas transgender FtM athletes have to choose between hormones and sport even though there would be no unfair advantage to them competing in men's categories.

Regardless of how anyone identifies or what terminology they use to describe themselves, it's always the ones who were born with a penis who get all the privilege. And that should tell you all you need to know about this so-called rights movement.

Not a men's rights activist
Understand rationale behind female sports
Don't think mixed sports is best way to meet societal objectives in all cases
Don't think mixed sports is necessarily an aberration in other cases
Think it should be left to sporting associations to decide
Understand that discrimination is an ongoing issue
Understand difference between equality and equity. Don't accept that equity is not political. Don't think anyone has monopoly on defining 'fairness'.
Believe that sex matters, and has always mattered
Believe that this holds true in many settings - sports, but also the workplace.
Charge of hypocrisy still stands - Second wave had it (broadly) right. Third wave went off track. The backlash and ensuing GC movement is dominated by rabid, ill-informed and hate-filled rhetoric. Trans issues are mental health issues. Treating them as women's rights issues is, in my view, a strategic mistake.

What are you angry at?

All I can see is you raging at someone telling them to shut up.

Are you a TRA or pro segregating men and women in sport?

Goodchat

With respect I disagree. There is plenty of it occurring on this thread. Posters are concerned and angry at what is happening in womens sport and we're accused of paranoia, told it's really not that big an issue.

It's my post that was quoted and claimed I was gaslighting which clearly wasn't the case. That's what I took offence to.

https://4w.pub/fetish-footballer-policy/

YANBU this man in Ireland who in the article says he is completely "comfortable with his genitals" but under the Gender Recognition Act identifies as a woman. "Giulia Genitals" now has full permission & plays with a ladies football team.
UK look & learn from Ireland. Don't let this happen on your watch.

You do not understand biology or if you do you are conveniently ignoring it.

I agree.

It’s not up to women to fix male humans problems with other male humans.

"Society today prioritises inclusion. When it's SEND kids and kids with ADHD in mainstream classrooms, the MN massive takes a very different view on what 'fairness' is."

Just highlighting this for all readers to see.

So, including children in a classroom where special accommodations can be made and are made somehow should be the basis for allowing male people to enter into female sport's categories?

"If societal rule number one is that every individual should be able to compete in their chosen sport somewhere (the inclusion principle)."

And every individual can compete in their chosen sport. A male can compete in with the other male people.

I asked upthread and I will ask again. What other male people who inhibit their sports performance either through taking medication or deliberately changing their body to be weaker and to change shape should be accepted into female sports categories? Why is this group of males different?

Would you accept a 25 year old competing with the under 12 year olds for inclusion?

Would you accept a 25 year old competing with the over 85 year olds for inclusion?

Would you accept a fully sighted person competing with the people with no sight at all for inclusion?

Would you accept a professional level athlete competing with the amateur in an amateur event for inclusion?

Would you accept a bike with an electric motor competing in the Tour de France for inclusion?

"If you want perfect fairness, then sure, let's have 7 billion categories and we can all have a gold medal. That's the illogical end point of intersectionality."

No, that is hyperbole that you are trying to use to convince readers that sports is inherently unfair so give everyone their own event. And no one is saying that one female body doesn't have advantages over another female body. I don't believe I have ever read anything that denies that at all.

The difference is, that the best female athletes cannot compete with male advantages.

And no. A male who is mediocre in performance should not be considered 'fair competition' for a well trained, and talented female athlete. There is a fucking reason that Laurel Hubbard, a 40 something male with recent injuries beat out much younger women. And that there were no equal 40 something female there to beat them in the competition to get the spot on the team.

#nothankyou

Goodchat yes I know and according to my understanding of the term I'm correct.

This seems like a good idea!

"The backlash and ensuing GC movement is dominated by rabid, ill-informed and hate-filled rhetoric."

Oh dear again.

So, you agree that no males should be competing in female sports categories.

You just don't like the way some women discuss it?

You have ignored the many informed posters on this thread because obviously to you they are "rabid, ill-informed and hate-filled', yet you posted some offensive stuff in your post that readers can see for themselves.

"Trans issues are mental health issues."

And that is transphobic. Did you realise that?

"Treating them as women's rights issues is, in my view, a strategic mistake."

So, treating a group of male people seeking access into the spaces and opportunities that were set up to protect the interests of all female people, of all genders, to continue to strive to overcome the impact of millennia of negative sexist discrimination and to meet the needs of female people should not have been treated as a 'women's rights issue'.

I suspect you actually don't understand the "GC movement" at all. I suspect that you have a rather prejudiced view on this and it has led you to post posts where you do present as a men's rights activist, despite your claims that you are not.

Those paragraphs about female tennis players and males boxing female boxers were very enlightening. Thanks.

I am pretty sure that most readers see that your idea of a 'strategic mistake' amounts to you showing your prejudices rather than you having an informed contribution on this thread to make.

Where was the gaslighting in the quote you posted?

For anyone interested in the sports advantages found in the Australian study here it is. There is a Greek study that shows similar results too.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22021354/

I have read it back when it was first released, but it is now paywalled. In it they picked up that even at 9 years old boys out performed girls in sports.

The Greek study was the one that showed that even at 6 years old boys out performed girls at sports.

Li Wenwen? Caster Semenya? Where do you draw the line? Who else are you prepared to erase/negate because they don't match your views?

The arguments for separating boxers to ensure safety are clear. Currently it's split by sex first and weight second. If the boxing governing bodies can devise categories based on weight first and testosterone levels second (or whatever else they come up with) and thereby allow men and women to compete together in a way that is inclusive and also safe, why would anyone ideologically oppose it?

There's no safety issue in women and men playing golf together. There's no impact on their final score, or handicap. The male advantage in golf drive (from the article @Helleofabore shared - thank you - I can't actually read them as fast as you are citing them, but I do try to keep up) means it is more likely that male golfers will get to the green in fewer strokes, but shot accuracy, club selection, stroke technique and putting ability are still very significant factors. If they weren't, all the golf champions would look like wrestlers, and guess what - they don't.

The only reason GC's would want to prevent men and women playing golf together is because they fear the glory would flow disproportionately towards men. They want to ring-fence and capture a share of the podium finishes, medals and prize money - ideally one that delivers a 50:50 split by sex. But that's not equivalent to a 50:50 split by talent, or effort, or any other sporting criterion. It is just as arbitrary as insisting on a split by height. And it is a political choice, not a 'natural' one. Men have subsidised women's grass roots and competitive sports for years, because society deemed it equitable. GCs who aren't prepared to include trans people at all on a point of principle are just pulling the ladder up behind them - and the greatest irony of all is that women still have such a long way to go to achieve equality (never mind equity).

That Australian research has been used quite a few times. Here for example, although probably not an official piece of research:

https://www.swansea.ac.uk/media/Swan-Linx%20Swansea%20Schools%27%20Fitness%20Fun%20Day%20feedback%20report%20(2015).pdf

Swan-Linx
Fitness Fun Day Report (2015)

this lists the results of Year 5 & 6 girls vs boys.

Li Wenwen? Caster Semenya? Where do you draw the line? Who else are you prepared to erase/negate because they don't match your views?

DSD is a completely different issue to transgender. Transgender people do not have a disorder of sexual development.

The hyperbole about erasing and negating is ridiculous. Having people compete in fair, sex based categories is not ‘erasure’.

Personally, I think that DSD should be treated through the kind of para sport measures. It’s not appropriate for athletes with DSDs to compete in standard sex categories because of their disorder of sexual development. But they are not a homogenous group - the specific characteristics of their DSD make all the difference. Para sport processes are designed to enable fair competition where that is the case.

But, none of that has anything to do with transgender. How someone wants to identify is not comparable to a DSD.