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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU - Transgender 'athletes'

440 replies

HappyHippo1234 · 06/04/2023 00:38

To start off - I have no issue with trans people at all. The only issue I have is transgender females (male to female) competing in women sports.

Yes, they may have been taking hormones and they have lost some muscle and gained some fat. But, they have stronger bones and bigger spines, hands, feet, lungs and hearts. Basically trans females have an advantage over biological females.

What I absolutely HATE about the situation, it the trans athletes attitude, it honestly disgusts me. Did they never take biology as teenagers or learn about puberty?
For them to sit there with their wins and say that they have no advantage just p*sses me off. Are they stupid or ignorant? There's no way they don't know they have an advantage. Do they not realise they are taking wins away from girls and woman who have spent their whole lives training for a sport only for it to be taken away from someone who was a mediocre male.

Look at Lia Thomas, she was somewhere in the 400-500th best college male swimmer or something like that. She is now trans and BAM she is number 1 and winning everything.

It just annoys me to no end. Especially the trans woman who you can tell that they KNOW they have a major advantage and are cheating the system and then sit there with a SMUG GRIN on their faces. I mean every Caitlyn Jenner said it's wrong.

Sorry for the rant. My DD15 has been upset all week as on the weekend another girl beat all the girls by a huge stretch in her cross country meet (her team is usually 1st but were bumped to 2nd). At first everyone thought this girl was great, until one mom heard the group the girl was with discussing the results and how it was great for the team that this girl came out as trans and was boosting their results etc! Fair to say that news travelled quickly and there were MANY parents complaining to officials. But surprise surprise nothing was done about it. So at the award giving ceremony everyone waited as everything up to 1st place was given out and as soon as they got to the 1st team, I would say 95% of people walked away. It felt harsh but necessary!
(Also the girl was 16 and had only recently transitioned from what we could gather and when you actually looked at her you could tell she had gone through at least some portion of male puberty). Again nothing against the girl just don't think she could compete.

And to get around all these discrimination lawsuits, I think they should change the categories! Have an XX category and an XY category, that why there is no debate and no 'discrimination' as you can't identify as XY if you are XX! (And then also have an open category where trans, non-binary etc. can compete).

SORRY THAT WAS SO LONG. NOW FOR THE VOTE:

YABU - Trans (XX) women are woman and should be allowed to compete with XY women, even though they scientifically have an advantage.

YANBU - They will always have an advantage and so should not compete with XY women.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Helleofabore · 06/04/2023 09:29

For anyone who thinks males should compete in female sports categories, do you understand why there is a female sport’s category? It is only to allow female sports people to have fair competition.

Think about what other category boundaries you would be happy to accept

A 25 year old competing against a 10 year old?

A 25 year old competing against a 85 year old?

A person who had 90% vision competing with someone with 5% vision ?

A person who was a professional standard athlete competing in a novice only event ?

A bicycle with an electric engine competing against a 100% human powered bicycle in the Tour de France?

If you have said yes to any of these, why? if you have said no, then why would you accept a male with pubertal advantages in a female sports category?

PSNonsense · 06/04/2023 09:29

Lamplit · 06/04/2023 09:28

@PSNonsense I agree with you though ? Argue with yourselves if you could.

So what's your argument then? Other than calling people paranoid?

Changeau · 06/04/2023 09:29

You mentioned one sport while forgetting the huge effort that has gone into that Triathlon decision. It seems to be you who is missing the 'nuance' here

What makes you think I didn't understand or "forgot" the huge effort that went into this decision? I think posters here may have forgotten or not realised that trans athletes were involved in this decision- which is a good example of genuine trans athletes helping to create a solution.

Bamboux · 06/04/2023 09:31

SoupDragon · 06/04/2023 09:25

Why can't Usain Bold identify as a 10 year old and thrash everyone at sports day? It would be no different.

When Roots Manuva did it , it was a joke. And the kids booed him.

I guess @Changeau would find that unkind. They should have applauded.

roots manuva - witness the fitness

roots manuva

https://youtu.be/NDWgtB_MD24

Bamboux · 06/04/2023 09:32

SoupDragon · 06/04/2023 09:20

I've said this before on other threads but personally I don't have a problem with this. Sport should be a meritocracy, the best should win. I think dividing things up by gender is as wrong as dividing them by race or sexuality.

@Dotjones so you are basically saying that women should not bother competing in sports. The fastest/strongest will always be a man.

Yes, @Dotjones is saying that women's sports should not exist.

With a side order of racism.

KittiesInsane · 06/04/2023 09:33

Changeau · 06/04/2023 09:09

We have definitely had more trans boys playing in the boys teams than transgirls in the girls team (I can think of four trans boys playing boys football locally and not a single transgirl playing)

Ok, maybe it is unusual then. What’s the rationale for transboys playing with the boys, though? How is that allowed? Legally and physically, they’re still girls, surely, if under 16 (or is it 18)?

Changeau · 06/04/2023 09:34

KittiesInsane · 06/04/2023 09:33

Ok, maybe it is unusual then. What’s the rationale for transboys playing with the boys, though? How is that allowed? Legally and physically, they’re still girls, surely, if under 16 (or is it 18)?

Mixed teams are fine until 16 or 18 I can't remember (was 16 but I think it got changed to 18 but not 100% sure)

Mark19735 · 06/04/2023 09:35

In most sports where there is clear physiological advantage from some criterion, that sport is competed for by category.

Combat sports are divided into weight classes. There are 17 divisions in boxing. You'd never match a flyweight with a heavyweight.
Many sports are divided into age classes. You'd never put a 9-yr old gymnast up against a 16-yr old.
For a long time, many sports were split into 2 categories. Men and Non-Men (aka Women). Then, in 1960 the inaugural Paralympic games added new categories for many Olympic sports and there are now 10 categories of disability with hundreds of sub-categories depending on the sport and the nature of the impairment. All of these new categories were in addition to the existing one - Non-men (the original special category created to allow more fair participation by half the human population who were disadvantaged by their biology from competing in an 'Open' category).

None of these divisions are perfectly fair. Even within existing divisions there are latent advantages for particular characteristics. Most rowers tend to have a similar body shape. As do most jockeys. People without that body shape are unlikely to progress to elite levels, regardless of how hard they train.

Sometimes a sport's rules and scoring methodologies change and this results in a visible change in body shape of the competitors who podium (e.g. gymnasts - Simone Biles has a very different body shape than Nadia Comaneci, and it's only partly explained by training. Banning the skills that relied on hyper-extension and scoring more highly skills that emphasise power and strength also helped drive this change). Sometimes societal changes do the same. Access and participation by sectors of society that were historically excluded from sports have seen phenomenal changes in the physical appearance of elite athletes. Compare and contrast Margaret Court with Serena Williams.

Bleating that 'it's not fair because athletes born male are heavier' misses the point. Half the athletes born female are also heavier than the other half. What is needed to address this issue is for each sport's governing association to consider what the fairest way to divide the human population is, to ensure their sport remains accessible, and competitive, and safe, for the greatest number of participants. That is pretty much what they are all trying to do.
This will involve many factors - economic, social, legal, as well as sex. It's really not just about sex. And yes, along the way, there'll be some instances where the outcomes will be ones that society doesn't like - and things will evolve.

ReneBumsWombats · 06/04/2023 09:35

For anyone who thinks males should compete in female sports categories, do you understand why there is a female sport’s category? It is only to allow female sports people to have fair competition.

Yes.

It is not to reassure the competitors that we know they're women.

Naunet · 06/04/2023 09:36

Bamboux · 06/04/2023 09:32

Yes, @Dotjones is saying that women's sports should not exist.

With a side order of racism.

I think dividing it up by species is just as bad as racism and sexism and we should let all animals in. I want to see a bear fight a man in MMA. Why not? The best should win. Right @Dotjones ?

Helleofabore · 06/04/2023 09:36

For anyone interested, although this link has not been updated recently, here are some of the sports where female athletes have lost against male athletes.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4175263--No-Trans-Olympian-List-of-women-and-girls-disadvantaged-in-sport-resource-thread?latest=0

In fact, here is a current thread about a male who holds a large % of the Canadian female weighlifting records in the categories they compete it. And how unhappy that male was that another male smashed their record while competing under the current rules. You really could not make this up.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4777101-canada-has-its-trans-weight-lifting-policy-shown-up-for-the-sham-it-is?page=1

‘No Trans Olympian’ List of women and girls disadvantaged in sport - resource thread | Mumsnet

Mumsnet makes parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support on everything from conception to childbirth, from babies to teenagers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4175263--No-Trans-Olympian-List-of-women-and-girls-disadvantaged-in-sport-resource-thread?latest=0

Changeau · 06/04/2023 09:38

FA changed the age limit for mixed teams to 18 a few.years ago. Was seen as a good thing as it benefitted girls to play with and against boys. However, with the rise of girls football, in practice there are now very few mixed teams or leagues post 16.

PSNonsense · 06/04/2023 09:39

Race and who you are attracted to doesn't have an impact on sporting ability.

Whether you are born male or female does. It's not difficult to understand or it shouldn't be. Got to wonder sometimes.

MarshaBradyo · 06/04/2023 09:39

Mark19735 · 06/04/2023 09:35

In most sports where there is clear physiological advantage from some criterion, that sport is competed for by category.

Combat sports are divided into weight classes. There are 17 divisions in boxing. You'd never match a flyweight with a heavyweight.
Many sports are divided into age classes. You'd never put a 9-yr old gymnast up against a 16-yr old.
For a long time, many sports were split into 2 categories. Men and Non-Men (aka Women). Then, in 1960 the inaugural Paralympic games added new categories for many Olympic sports and there are now 10 categories of disability with hundreds of sub-categories depending on the sport and the nature of the impairment. All of these new categories were in addition to the existing one - Non-men (the original special category created to allow more fair participation by half the human population who were disadvantaged by their biology from competing in an 'Open' category).

None of these divisions are perfectly fair. Even within existing divisions there are latent advantages for particular characteristics. Most rowers tend to have a similar body shape. As do most jockeys. People without that body shape are unlikely to progress to elite levels, regardless of how hard they train.

Sometimes a sport's rules and scoring methodologies change and this results in a visible change in body shape of the competitors who podium (e.g. gymnasts - Simone Biles has a very different body shape than Nadia Comaneci, and it's only partly explained by training. Banning the skills that relied on hyper-extension and scoring more highly skills that emphasise power and strength also helped drive this change). Sometimes societal changes do the same. Access and participation by sectors of society that were historically excluded from sports have seen phenomenal changes in the physical appearance of elite athletes. Compare and contrast Margaret Court with Serena Williams.

Bleating that 'it's not fair because athletes born male are heavier' misses the point. Half the athletes born female are also heavier than the other half. What is needed to address this issue is for each sport's governing association to consider what the fairest way to divide the human population is, to ensure their sport remains accessible, and competitive, and safe, for the greatest number of participants. That is pretty much what they are all trying to do.
This will involve many factors - economic, social, legal, as well as sex. It's really not just about sex. And yes, along the way, there'll be some instances where the outcomes will be ones that society doesn't like - and things will evolve.

Bleating that 'it's not fair

When people post like this you know the rest is going to be male centric and trying to excuse gender ideology

Segregate by sex as a basic requirement. If other divisions are needed that’s no issue.

KittiesInsane · 06/04/2023 09:42

Changeau · 06/04/2023 09:34

Mixed teams are fine until 16 or 18 I can't remember (was 16 but I think it got changed to 18 but not 100% sure)

Ah, thanks. I’m out of touch (mine were never much into football).

Helleofabore · 06/04/2023 09:47

Mark19735 · 06/04/2023 09:35

In most sports where there is clear physiological advantage from some criterion, that sport is competed for by category.

Combat sports are divided into weight classes. There are 17 divisions in boxing. You'd never match a flyweight with a heavyweight.
Many sports are divided into age classes. You'd never put a 9-yr old gymnast up against a 16-yr old.
For a long time, many sports were split into 2 categories. Men and Non-Men (aka Women). Then, in 1960 the inaugural Paralympic games added new categories for many Olympic sports and there are now 10 categories of disability with hundreds of sub-categories depending on the sport and the nature of the impairment. All of these new categories were in addition to the existing one - Non-men (the original special category created to allow more fair participation by half the human population who were disadvantaged by their biology from competing in an 'Open' category).

None of these divisions are perfectly fair. Even within existing divisions there are latent advantages for particular characteristics. Most rowers tend to have a similar body shape. As do most jockeys. People without that body shape are unlikely to progress to elite levels, regardless of how hard they train.

Sometimes a sport's rules and scoring methodologies change and this results in a visible change in body shape of the competitors who podium (e.g. gymnasts - Simone Biles has a very different body shape than Nadia Comaneci, and it's only partly explained by training. Banning the skills that relied on hyper-extension and scoring more highly skills that emphasise power and strength also helped drive this change). Sometimes societal changes do the same. Access and participation by sectors of society that were historically excluded from sports have seen phenomenal changes in the physical appearance of elite athletes. Compare and contrast Margaret Court with Serena Williams.

Bleating that 'it's not fair because athletes born male are heavier' misses the point. Half the athletes born female are also heavier than the other half. What is needed to address this issue is for each sport's governing association to consider what the fairest way to divide the human population is, to ensure their sport remains accessible, and competitive, and safe, for the greatest number of participants. That is pretty much what they are all trying to do.
This will involve many factors - economic, social, legal, as well as sex. It's really not just about sex. And yes, along the way, there'll be some instances where the outcomes will be ones that society doesn't like - and things will evolve.

"Half the athletes born female are also heavier than the other half. "

There are many advantages that a male of a similar weight will have over a female of a similar weight. For instance a male's grip strength, which is pertinent in many sports. A male in the lowest 25% for grip strength will still have a stronger grip than 90% of female people.

Then there are skeletal advantages. Higher bone density, different leverage points. Including Q angles in hips that create a difference. Then there are the different muscles. The list goes on.

Let's not forget that female brains have more delicate brain fibres and that makes them more prone to damage. Imagine the damage that is done by impact with a male body part that has come at that head with all the advantages that male bodies have. Speed due to length of leg, due to different muscle types that allow that speed. Height differences so that when that male body hits that female head, it hits and the female athlete's head has nowhere to go to mitigate that impact. Average punch strength is a huge difference between male and female bodies and is not reduced to matching average female punch strength.

Unfortunately, there are many people out there who think that weight matching between male and female bodies is a step towards 'fairness'. It is not.

Changeau · 06/04/2023 09:48

KittiesInsane · 06/04/2023 09:42

Ah, thanks. I’m out of touch (mine were never much into football).

It was always seen as a good thing to be in a mixed team as playing with and against boys improved girls football. This isn't so much the case now as there are more talented girls teams.

Helleofabore · 06/04/2023 09:49

By the way, those who believe that males should be included in female sports for any reason, how do you overcome the disadvantages that females have because of their menstrual cycle?

Something a male athlete has never had to deal with in their lives.

MrsSkylerWhite · 06/04/2023 09:50

Don’t know why they can’t extend categories, have separate ones for trans people 🤷‍♀️

Helleofabore · 06/04/2023 09:55

Another question for those who believe that males should compete in female sports categories.

What other male group would you include who has a lowered athletic performance through medical treatment or even just their choice to change their body shape?

A male deliberately reduces their athletic performance and maybe their own health by reducing or removing testosterone from their body and expects to be able to compete with women who are in peak fitness and consider this fair?

Or a male deliberately shapes their body, as J Harper has stated happens, by losing muscle mass and focusing on enhancing what they consider the 'feminine' body shape, and yet expect that to be a reason to compete with female athletes? Female athletes who cannot win a competition just by trying to get a more 'male' body shape as that would be doping, and there is no way of being competitive without doping. Female bodies simply do not have the advantages that male bodies do!

Changeau · 06/04/2023 09:55

MrsSkylerWhite · 06/04/2023 09:50

Don’t know why they can’t extend categories, have separate ones for trans people 🤷‍♀️

Triathlon already does and I'd imagine that's exactly what will happen over time.

ReneBumsWombats · 06/04/2023 09:57

Changeau · 06/04/2023 09:55

Triathlon already does and I'd imagine that's exactly what will happen over time.

Sounds absolutely fine.

Naunet · 06/04/2023 09:57

Mark19735 · 06/04/2023 09:35

In most sports where there is clear physiological advantage from some criterion, that sport is competed for by category.

Combat sports are divided into weight classes. There are 17 divisions in boxing. You'd never match a flyweight with a heavyweight.
Many sports are divided into age classes. You'd never put a 9-yr old gymnast up against a 16-yr old.
For a long time, many sports were split into 2 categories. Men and Non-Men (aka Women). Then, in 1960 the inaugural Paralympic games added new categories for many Olympic sports and there are now 10 categories of disability with hundreds of sub-categories depending on the sport and the nature of the impairment. All of these new categories were in addition to the existing one - Non-men (the original special category created to allow more fair participation by half the human population who were disadvantaged by their biology from competing in an 'Open' category).

None of these divisions are perfectly fair. Even within existing divisions there are latent advantages for particular characteristics. Most rowers tend to have a similar body shape. As do most jockeys. People without that body shape are unlikely to progress to elite levels, regardless of how hard they train.

Sometimes a sport's rules and scoring methodologies change and this results in a visible change in body shape of the competitors who podium (e.g. gymnasts - Simone Biles has a very different body shape than Nadia Comaneci, and it's only partly explained by training. Banning the skills that relied on hyper-extension and scoring more highly skills that emphasise power and strength also helped drive this change). Sometimes societal changes do the same. Access and participation by sectors of society that were historically excluded from sports have seen phenomenal changes in the physical appearance of elite athletes. Compare and contrast Margaret Court with Serena Williams.

Bleating that 'it's not fair because athletes born male are heavier' misses the point. Half the athletes born female are also heavier than the other half. What is needed to address this issue is for each sport's governing association to consider what the fairest way to divide the human population is, to ensure their sport remains accessible, and competitive, and safe, for the greatest number of participants. That is pretty much what they are all trying to do.
This will involve many factors - economic, social, legal, as well as sex. It's really not just about sex. And yes, along the way, there'll be some instances where the outcomes will be ones that society doesn't like - and things will evolve.

What a load of shit excuses for handing womens hard fought for sports over to men. Get a grip, at least be honest about what you’re arguing for.

Helleofabore · 06/04/2023 09:58

Here is a tweet from a sport's scientist about body shapes.

Ross Tucker Jun 29th 2020,

Something keeps coming up in the discussions about women’s sport, fairness and advantages for transwomen. It’s that there is an overlap in the physiology affecting performance between males & females, which some say makes arguments about unfairness irrelevant. Here’s a thread (1/

First, the start point is saying that physiological attributes that drive performance overlap between M & F. This is definitely true - many women are stronger, faster, more powerful, muscular, leaner etc, than many men. Nobody would dispute this - just join a race to find out (2/

Next, this observation - a spectrum for the secondary sex characteristics - is used to argue against a sex binary, which is disingenuous. They’re different things. But it evolves into saying that because there is overlap and because sport is all about “natural advantages”, the...

…issue of fairness is moot - just as Fast twitch fibres or bigger lungs give people advantages, why should we care if those who get testosterone’s effects on physiology win women’s sports events? Theirs is a “natural advantage”. That’s the part that needs discussion. (4/)

Take the 100m Olympic title. We crown two champions - Bolt and Frasey-Pryce. Why do we do this? Because Bolt, and hundreds like him, are 10% faster than FP. That’s the effect of androgens on physiology. If we didn’t crown a women’s champ, only men would win anything in sport

The thing about them is that Bolt and FP are already exceptional within their respective groups as different, which is the very thing that sport is trying to do - it wants to find exceptional athleticism. In some sports that means FT fibres, biochemistry, neurophysiology etc

In other sports it’s about endurance (heart, lungs, mitochondria), in others it’s power/strength/biochemistry etc. Thing is, sport tries to find exceptionalism, that’s why it’s great. But the key here is that Bolt & FP are basically IDENTICAL in all these physiological respects

The system that allows Bolt to reach the Olympic podium is the same as the one that ‘finds’ FP atop hers. The point is that they have emerged from their respective populations with the best possible combinations to make them both champions. Equal. But different. By 10 - 15%. Why?

That difference is where biological reality of being male comes in. The effect of androgens, from early development through puberty and into adulthood creates such profound differences that 2 people who possess the same “important” physiology in a given sport are 10-15% different

In fact, the T effect is so powerful that a huge number of biological males who have ‘inferior physiology’ compared to Usain Bolt are still vastly superior to Fraser-Pryce, with her “optimal” physiology. They are 1% - 11% worse than Bolt but still faster than her. This is the key

There is no other physiological attribute that does this. The effect is so powerful that thousands of men who lack ‘perfect combinations’ of attributes are faster than the best woman. That doesn’t happen for big feet, long arms, high LT or whatever ‘advantaged’ group you compare

The beauty of sport is that it rewards exceptionalism, but ONLY IN ELEMENTS THAT ACTUALLY MATTER TO THE SPORT. That’s why we have age & weight categories. They protect integrity and safety of the ‘disadvantaged’ groups (young or light) to allow us to celebrate boxing (eg) prowess

If we allowed biological sex to become one of the elements sport rewards, it would mean rewarding ONLY people with functioning androgen physiology. The champions in EVERY SINGLE event would be male. In fact, the top 3000 (at least) would be. That’s not how it’s meant to be.

So we have this category for females, because the BIOLOGICAL implications of NOT having T contribute to development are so enormous that we realise that without this separate category, sport would not have meaning for that whole group. It doesn’t matter than FP is faster than me

It doesn’t matter that Serena Williams would hammer 90% of men at tennis or that Katie Ledecky swims better than almost everyone I know. What matters is that within a matched group (elite, club, state, high school), the best females have NO chance against identical/matched males

And so if you need to reach down and find inferior males to compare to the very best females within each band, then you’re deliberately distorting the meaning and value of sport in order to make the argument. It’s irrelevant though, because FP isn’t competing against me!

All this said, a biological argument that writes T out of performance determinism in sport needs to end. It has no value for the debate, it’s frankly stupid and/or dishonest. A human rights arguments I get, but we can’t deny biological reality for the sake of a desired position

ReneBumsWombats · 06/04/2023 09:59

Naunet · 06/04/2023 09:57

What a load of shit excuses for handing womens hard fought for sports over to men. Get a grip, at least be honest about what you’re arguing for.

I'm familiar with the username.

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