Grooming of children aged 10-12 actually on Dutch TV

[thepox]

I don't know how old this clip is, but this is utterly insane.

How is this allowed? Didn't grooming used to be covert?

OK, so you have learned that not everyone agrees with you.

I can't quite work out if it's the fact of the nudity itself that is bothering you - which, as others have indicated, is perceived very differently by some cultures - or whether it is the way in which the nudity has been handled on this particular programme. From what you've said, you seem to be bothered by the nudity itself.

I don't think we necessarily need to "protect" children from seeing ordinary human bodies, but as I've said, I wouldn't want my dd to participate in some kind of televised freak show. And any kind of sexualised approach should obviously be completely off limits.

I don't necessarily have a problem with children being shown naked bodies in an educational context. I do have a problem with children being shown bodies which have had healthy parts removed and told that that's normal.

I think making a TV show like this is really weird. But I don't have any issues with mixed sex nudity, I think it helps children grow up with realistic expectations of human bodies, but I did grow up in a culture where nudity was common and normalised so can understand why people who grew up in the UK find it weird as nudity is very much a no-no here.

Why do they have to be naked? And why children?

Half of kids in the UK age 11-13 have already seen porn. I would MUCH rather they see a healthy variety of “normal” naked bodies in various shapes and sizes than for their expectations to be shaped by porn.

Christ have a day off you lot. Would you call a woman with a mastectomy “mutilated” ?

Normal naked bodies with mastectomy scars? Semi naked people wearing packers? Naked adults talking about amazing sex change surgery?

Michael Knowles isn’t much of a source. He’s the guy who called Greta Thunberg ‘mentally ill’ on live TV and is very vocal about his opposition to same-sex marriage. He’s a traditional Catholic, hard-right commentator, so not someone you can assume takes a balanced view.

That video has been chopped about with and the subtitling ‘loosely’ translated to generate maximum froth-rage.

Yes, fine by me. Is your problem the nudity overall or the fact that trans people are included?

The video I posted isn't from Michael Knowles.

But the captioned picture you posted is.

Some more information about this series
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/holland-tv-show-naked-adults-children-b1814563.html?amp

Do you think all the other episodes are grooming too OP?

@Knullrufs yeah it is.

But everyone is free to watch the video that's not from Michael Knowles

Yes.

I think you’re ignoring the massive cultural difference. In a culture where it’s more normal for children to see adult naked bodies, there is not such a leap to seeing trans naked bodies. Dutch children also have age appropriate sex education, including consent, from age 4.

Applying both British culture norms and the typical MN attitude to trans people to a TV programme from the liberal end of a more liberal culture is only going to make you look ridiculous tbh.

As you can tell from my username, I grew up as a naturist from the time I was born, and all of our holidays were naturist, there was a club near where we lived so we often went at the weekend too. So I grew up seeing a lot of adult naked bodies (and I was much younger than 12). None of it was sexual and I certainly didn‘t feel groomed, no one ever approached me (the people who went were highly vetted, no single men allowed to apply etc). And I think I grew up pretty normal!

I chose to start wearing clothes when I hit puberty and as a consequence my parents stopped going too, and they were fine with that. I have no desire to be a naturist now as an adult either, but it wasn‘t a debauched childhood by any stretch!

We ARE prudish about the naked body in this country, as in a non-sexualised way. Kids don‘t see normal naked bodies but are exposed to porn, which in my view is waaay more harmful that watching a programme of normal looking people talk about their bodies.

I don’t see any pressing need to display nude adults to under 12s.

I particularly don’t see the ‘educational’ value of showing packers, scarring or anything else relating to body dysmorphia to children, especially ones that young.

The OP has been clear that it isn't the trans aspect that bothers her. It is the naked bodies that she has an issue with, and the fact that children are being shown these.

I don't agree that it's "grooming", OP. That implies some kind of sexual motive that clearly isn't there. In many cultures, nudity doesn't carry the same taboo that it does in the UK. I can understand the argument that people may not feel comfortable with the idea of showing children healthy bodies that have been operated on for reasons that they don't agree with, e.g. sex change operations. However, if it's handled sensitively and appropriately, I don't necessarily have a problem with this either. I think openness and honesty with children is good.

Yes.

I consider my own body mutilated. I had a necessary surgery to save my life. I'm still mutilated because of it.

I get where you're coming from, but maybe having more openness about the human body in all its forms might actually help to prevent children leaping to the conclusion that they were somehow "born in the wrong body"? I don't know, but I'm not sure that our discomfort with nudity in this country makes life any easier for kids when they hit puberty.

I think openness and honesty with children is good.

Well that WOULD be a good goal…

I’d bet money, however, that the program makers didn’t get detransitioners on to talk about how they regret the operations they undertook. I’d bet their openness didn’t extend to what skin grafts look like when they fail and become infected, or what early onset osteoporosis does to a woman.

Quite possibly not. I am not passing judgement on this particular programme as I haven't watched it. I am just talking about general principles.

I agree that, if you are going to show children the bodies of people who have been through sex change surgery, then you have to show a realistic picture of that, including times when things have gone wrong and/or when people have regretted the surgery or discovered that it didn't actually resolve any of their problems. Like I say, openness and honesty is good. Whether this particular programme actually delivers this, I couldn't possibly say.

Just because it's not normal for you doesn't mean it's not normal for others. Not everyone is as scared of the naked human body as brits/irish are . The french certainly aren't. Nor the Germans. And they don't seem to be too damaged by it it's just different.

Mmmm

That's what a paedophile would say! It's all completely normal and why are you so wierd about sex?

Dignity privacy respect boundaries keeps children safe. Gives children agency to understand the boundaries.

My school bus driver was a paedophilie and 'just tickled us girls in our pants!' It was all fine.

He died in jail due to brave womens testimony.

The ones who encourage nakedness or 'see nothing wrong with it between adults and children (not parents in the day to day stuff) but other adults are fucking wierd.

So you think cultures where nudity is less of a taboo are all normalising/encouraging paedophilia?

I'm sorry about what happened to you as a child, but having lived in countries where nudity is not such a big deal as it is here, I totally disagree that one leads to the other. In a sense, our squeamishness about nudity might actually make it more difficult for kids to speak up when stuff is wrong.