Brother and SIL pushing us out of children's lives

[AnnoyedAuntie]

Sorry, this will likely be a long read! My brother and SIL have two DCs who are my parent's only grandchildren and mine and my DB's only nieces. Since the children were born my side of the family have felt very pushed out of their lives, in favour of SIL's family. They're a large, extremely close knit bunch (at each others houses 24/7 or on facetime constantly). At the baby shower for the first born, SIL's mother refused to engage in conversation with our family, and the rest followed suit. Considering her lot made up 90% of those in attendance due to the sheer size of their family, this made us very uncomfortable, like lepers sat in the corner. In hindsight this was a massive indication of how we were going to be treated moving forward.

Since that point we have had to fight for every second we've been allowed to spend with the children. We put in all the effort as they refuse to come to any of our houses as it's too much effort (they don't drive but we all live a short bus journey away and have offered lifts and purchased car seats to help with this. They've taken us up on this offer once). When we arrange to go to them they regularly cancel at the last minute, or generally make you feel unwelcome once you are there. SIL will suddenly have loads of jobs to do, or will sit in the corner on facetime to her family. When it comes to Christmas and birthdays we are never taken into account when planning family visits and are told "sorry, we're doing this and that with SILs family, so you'll have to drop in in the evening midweek", despite the fact that we all work and the children are in bed for six/seven o'clock.

She doesn't work and spends her weekdays at her family's house as they also don't work, so is literally with them from early morning until DB gets home from work. My parents are heartbroken and don't feel like grandparents. On top of this, DB will call them and ask to borrow money as when and they need it and they always give it to him, despite the fact that they don't really have it to lend out. He's absolutely shameless paying pitiful amounts back each month, whilst they both splash the cash they do have on crap they don't need. I don't believe this is a factor in them not wanting to see us, as DB has been like this since he was a teen and doesn't see anything wrong with treating people like that.

I've raised this problem with him in the past, in as polite away as I possibly can, asking him to include our DPs more and try and make seeing them a regular thing. Even if it's just to invite them up for a couple of hours once a fortnight. SIL had an extreme reaction to this and decided I was banned from seeing the children at all. She calmed down following this but my DPs are now scared to say anything that could be taken negatively in case their very limited contact with the children is taken away all together (on average they currently see the children for a couple of hours, at DB's house, around every 3 months).

It feels like a lost cause and I'm at a point where I feel like I just can't be bothered anymore. I'm sick of getting upset about it and seeing my parents so upset about it too. If I say something I risk her flipping her lid and stopping any of us from seeing the children at all. I have one of my niece's birthday presents sat here days after the event because, according to them, they've been too busy with SIL's family for me to even drop in for ten minutes to give this to her. Ahead of one of their birthdays last year my DPs suggested throwing a small party at their house, on whatever day at the weekend works best for DB and SIL, to allow our family to see the children and give gifts etc, but this was refused as they wanted to see SIL's family both days.

Would IBU to just cut contact, keep a distance and post presents to them in future (despite the fact they live a 10 minute drive from us)? Or should I bite the bullet and raise this again for the sake of my parents (and risk SIL losing her shit again and banning contact all together?) I just feel like I can't win!

If you've made it this far, thank you for reading!

Just drop it. There's nothing you can do about the situation. If anything, putting pressure on will make it worse.

Nobody "wins" in this case. All you can do is hope for continued contact with the children in the future.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't be posting any presents either, I'd just stop bothering with them. Sounds a bit harsh but they clearly can't be bothered with you so why should you go to any effort? The children aren't going to miss out on anything if there's hardly any relationship to begin with.

Nothing dramatic, just stop putting any effort in for people where you aren't getting anything back.

Sadly, your DB doesn't seem interested in facilitating a better relationship with you side of the family so I think you'll have to just accept it.

I know how hard it is when you watch your parents being hurt by something your sibling is doing but I think you need to take a step away and let your parents fight their own battles. It didn’t help last time and there is no gaurantee it will do anything good this time. For yourself you need to decide what gives you the most peace and accept that you can’t change what your sil does

This is where I get angry though, as he's doesn't hesitate to pick up the phone to ask our DPs to loan him money. I'm not saying that they should loan money with the condition that they get to see the children, but DB is happy to ask for this and accept it whilst planning for them to visit the children, and then cancelling the morning of the visit.

just give them space, and send your neice/nephew the occasional gift so they know who you are

Wow, I'm very familiar with this situation. Unfortunately it's resulted in my side of the family being completely cut off, however I've accepted my brother obviously doesn't want us in his life and that's his decision. As hard as it is, you can't make them do what they don't want to do. I'm sorry.

I can see why you are upset and frustrated. It’s tricky. SIL is very close to her family, and your brother isn’t making much effort with his.

I am sure my ILs feel similar- they have met my youngest (8 months) twice, but we have seen my parents 3 time in the last week. DH doesn’t organise anything with them, and they barely speak to me so I only try to arrange things periodically. My oldest DC has a birthday coming up. I’ve been asking DH for WEEKS to ask his family when they are free and he just won’t, so I’ve gone ahead and made plans with my family.

If you want to maintain a relationship I would be available. Send the presents, don’t make seeing them a condition on children getting presents. Be available the surrounding weekends for birthday fun etc. When we recently couldn’t do the one weekend MIL wanted to visit, she said she would see us in July instead….

Putting pressure on to meet up will just push them further away.

The fact her family wouldn’t speak to you at the baby shower makes me wonder if you did or said something that offended her in the distant past? Can you think of anything, even if it was inadvertent?

Absolutely nothing at all that I can think of. We hadn't met them before but they are a very closed off bunch. They are all each others best friends and live on top of each other.

Next time DB asks them for money, they should say 'come over with the kids and we can talk about it'.

YANBU. Talk to your parents and suggest that you and them take a step back. No more money for DB, no begging for crumbs of attention, just post token presents to the kids.

It will be much better for all of your wellbeing.

I think you should leave your parents out of it - their relationship with your DB and his children is theirs to manage, they are adults who will have a lot more influence over him than you ever will, as they are his parents. So step back on that account.

On to you - are you just angry on your parents' behalf, really, or are you missing your relationship with your nieces? Do you have kids of your own and you're concerned about their relationship with their cousins? You mention that when you visit SIL suddenly has loads of jobs to do etc - if you are there to see your nieces, what does it matter? Just focus on them. It sounds like you don't like your DB or your SIL much (which is totally fine, they don't sound great), but they are the gatekeepers to your relationship with your nieces so you need to work around them if you value that relationship. There's no court of 'fairness' you can appeal to here.

My advice? Take every opportunity to spend time with your nieces, spoil them and bond with them, while paying basic courtesies to your DB and SIL - even if they are not courteous in kind to you. Send them gifts and little notes. Let them know you are thinking of them and love them, even if you are not able to see them as much as you'd like. At a distance, you can take on a sort of 'fairy godmother' role and that can be your presence in their lives until they are old enough to make some of their own decisions about seeing more of you, or until you have kids of your own and you can push the angle that the cousins should spend time together.

I certainly wouldn't go at it from a 'it's not fair/equal' angle. And if you are not actually that bothered personally about your nieces, but about what you perceive as your DB's poor treatment of your parents (which if you are reflective is basically an 'it's not fair' feeling that he gets to behave badly and still get their love/financial support), then you need to take a massive step back because that attitude won't help you, your parents, or the little girls who should be the priority here. It sounds like they are already surrounded by a lot of close-knit family with a big role in their lives - good for them. See how you and your parents can augment that.

Sad fact is that usually, maternal family get more involvement because the mum usually gets more say and is closer to her own family. It's not fair of course. But if you have your own kids, you may find yourself, consciously or unconsciously, prioritising your own mum/siblings over your DH's, as that's who you feel comfortable with.

I really feel for you OP. Unfortunately you can’t control what your SIL and her family do and it sounds like your brother is useless, so no point in trying to change him. It’s not like this is a small misunderstanding, it’s an inherent character flaw.

If I were you, I would give up on DB/SIL and my goal would be to have a good relationship with the kids once they are old enough to facilitate their own relationships. So in the meantime, just send birthday presents with nice cards, so they know who you are. And be available as you are currently so you still see them a couple of times a year. Then when they are older (probably 18 I’m afraid), you can message them independently and invite them out for lunch or whatever or go to visit them at uni etc. I barely had any relationship with my aunt growing up but we’ve become close since I was in my late 20s (I’m mid 30s now) and our DHs get on really well.

It’s totally shit for your parents though as they don’t have the luxury of having time on their side. But honestly there’s nothing they can really do except send more gifts and cards and hope the kids choose to visit them independently when they are older. I wouldn’t get involved in your parents’ relationship as I don’t think there’s anything you can actually do to improve the situation.

best of luck OP.

I'd drop it. I see this happening all the time to a greater or lesser extent. The issue is your DB, it's up to him to keep the relationship in a good place and he's not interested and you can't force it.
I'd coach the parents to stop giving money too. He's a grown man with a job, he should be able to live within his means.

SIL and her family sound frightfully common.

Why is DB always asking your parents for loans when she doesn’t work? Surely the solution is that she gets a job?

You say her family don’t work either so that tells me a lot about them.

It sounds like your brother has married down and I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with SIL and her family.

Unfortunately since they are the main influences on your nieces, it’s inevitable they will turn out like their mother and her family.

I would back off and not trouble myself about them anymore.

Hellfire, that is the snobbiest post I have EVER read on Mumsnet, and that's saying something. 'Frightfully common'? Do you actually hear yourself?

Also 'married down'. WTF. Are you speaking to us from the Victorian era?

Honestly- just drop the rope. Your brother doesn't give a shit about facilitating a relationship bw his children and you so sadly you can't have a meaningful one. So stop making an effort to see them, send gifts etc. You can't win this one.

Lol. But am I wrong?

They sound like the chaviest chavs who ever chavved 😊

SIL puts me in mind of one of those mums people were complaining about who have loudspeaker conversations all over public transport. We all know the sort so no point being coy about it!

Time to give up. You tried talking to your brother and it ended badly. He has no interest in fostering a releironahip with his parents so there is nothing you can do. You should talk to your parents about the money but in the end its their decision. Instead if gifts I'd put the money aside for them when they are older but it you want to keep giving gifts then either just dropping them off without expectation or mailing are good options. Situstion really sucks for your parents but it might be easier to deal with the loss than the constant rejection.

This is practically what I was going to say.

It's not your SILs job to manage the relationship with everyone else in your side of the family, it's your brothers. If he's happy to ask for cash but not put the effort in to arrange family things on your side of the family, that's a him problem.

If she's closer to her family of course she's going to make an effort to see them more and arrange things with them, especially if they're naturally a close family. She doesn't need to do the "wife work" of making all of his plans for him too! You can't change who your brother is,

I would drop it. Had this in dhs family. He is one of 4. Had close relationship with 2 siblings and their kids. One and his wide just made it clear that we were not welcome ( travelled hours by train to visit them and they had sent kids to a childminder!). I stopped bothering and that was that. You can't make your brother into a better person. Stop trying. In your circs, I would post the odd present. And thats it.