Brother and SIL pushing us out of children's lives

[AnnoyedAuntie]

Sorry, this will likely be a long read! My brother and SIL have two DCs who are my parent's only grandchildren and mine and my DB's only nieces. Since the children were born my side of the family have felt very pushed out of their lives, in favour of SIL's family. They're a large, extremely close knit bunch (at each others houses 24/7 or on facetime constantly). At the baby shower for the first born, SIL's mother refused to engage in conversation with our family, and the rest followed suit. Considering her lot made up 90% of those in attendance due to the sheer size of their family, this made us very uncomfortable, like lepers sat in the corner. In hindsight this was a massive indication of how we were going to be treated moving forward.

Since that point we have had to fight for every second we've been allowed to spend with the children. We put in all the effort as they refuse to come to any of our houses as it's too much effort (they don't drive but we all live a short bus journey away and have offered lifts and purchased car seats to help with this. They've taken us up on this offer once). When we arrange to go to them they regularly cancel at the last minute, or generally make you feel unwelcome once you are there. SIL will suddenly have loads of jobs to do, or will sit in the corner on facetime to her family. When it comes to Christmas and birthdays we are never taken into account when planning family visits and are told "sorry, we're doing this and that with SILs family, so you'll have to drop in in the evening midweek", despite the fact that we all work and the children are in bed for six/seven o'clock.

She doesn't work and spends her weekdays at her family's house as they also don't work, so is literally with them from early morning until DB gets home from work. My parents are heartbroken and don't feel like grandparents. On top of this, DB will call them and ask to borrow money as when and they need it and they always give it to him, despite the fact that they don't really have it to lend out. He's absolutely shameless paying pitiful amounts back each month, whilst they both splash the cash they do have on crap they don't need. I don't believe this is a factor in them not wanting to see us, as DB has been like this since he was a teen and doesn't see anything wrong with treating people like that.

I've raised this problem with him in the past, in as polite away as I possibly can, asking him to include our DPs more and try and make seeing them a regular thing. Even if it's just to invite them up for a couple of hours once a fortnight. SIL had an extreme reaction to this and decided I was banned from seeing the children at all. She calmed down following this but my DPs are now scared to say anything that could be taken negatively in case their very limited contact with the children is taken away all together (on average they currently see the children for a couple of hours, at DB's house, around every 3 months).

It feels like a lost cause and I'm at a point where I feel like I just can't be bothered anymore. I'm sick of getting upset about it and seeing my parents so upset about it too. If I say something I risk her flipping her lid and stopping any of us from seeing the children at all. I have one of my niece's birthday presents sat here days after the event because, according to them, they've been too busy with SIL's family for me to even drop in for ten minutes to give this to her. Ahead of one of their birthdays last year my DPs suggested throwing a small party at their house, on whatever day at the weekend works best for DB and SIL, to allow our family to see the children and give gifts etc, but this was refused as they wanted to see SIL's family both days.

Would IBU to just cut contact, keep a distance and post presents to them in future (despite the fact they live a 10 minute drive from us)? Or should I bite the bullet and raise this again for the sake of my parents (and risk SIL losing her shit again and banning contact all together?) I just feel like I can't win!

If you've made it this far, thank you for reading!

Not the same situation exactly but your description of your SIL reminds me of my BIL's second wife. Everything has to be on her terms. She did come to family events occasionally but wasn't always gracious. She reluctantly had BIL's family to her place but was often semi absent or rude. Made it clear one Christmas she wanted BIL's mother and sister to leave, in their hearing. There's a ton of other things I could list. It felt like she just needed to be in control at all times. You can't win against someone like this, their need to have their own way trumps everything.

Your brother is either weak, doesn't care or likes it that way. You can't change him either.

As for your parents, that's up to them. If they wish to give him money, that's their business. If they ask for your opinion, give it. Otherwise let them make their own choices.

It's not that uncommon for grandparents to be disappointed either with their lack of contact with their GCs or with unreasonable demands from their offspring re childcare etc. IMO, best to live your own life and not invest so much into things you can't change.

As for presents, do as you feel is right. I don't know if I would send presents in that situation, especially when the children are too young to know.

It’s lovely that you want to be a part of your nieces’ lives, but your parents and you/your DH will have separate relationships with them.

Let your parents sort out their relationship with your brother’s family and you sort out yours.

He expects my parents to support him when he requests it, whether it's financial or otherwise, he expects birthday and Christmas cards and presents for himself, he expects them for his children

Well if he won’t reasonably let his parents and sister see his children then he has no right to expect these things, either for himself or for his children.

And let me guess, I bet he doesn’t reciprocate presents to you or if he does they are little things?

Hellfire isn’t actually wrong though.

Ultimately OP, it sounds like you don't particularly like your DB and SIL, you're judgemental about their lifestyle (very justifiably!), and you wish they were different.

You can't change them, and you can't make them act the way you want them to act.

You also can't manage their relationship with your DP.

It does sound however that your parents are enabling them to continue to behave the way they do. They treat your parents like shit - but your parents continue to give them money.

At the end of the day your brother is the connecting link between these children on one side, and you and your parents on the other.

How he conducts his life and how he allows/encourages/ignores his wife's behaviour is, essentially, his own business. You can only do what you've been doing and ask him for contact with his kids, and ask on behalf of your parents.

Or stop asking, and just keep posting the cards and small presents, just to keep your name 'alive' in the children's minds but there's not much else to be done.

Your brother needs to grow a pair of testicals, get his pathetic wife to get a sodding job and stop being possessive over their family.

I suppose this is the approach that I'm going to have to take. We often double up visits where we can get them. For example, if my DPs manage to arrange a visit they will ask DB if I can also come along and I do the same for them, and this has worked for all of us where the visits have gone ahead without being cancelled. Actual visits have been so limited and difficult to come by that arranging two separate ones just isn't possible most of the time.

It's also quite difficult to separate our relationships with them when the responsibility of looking out for my parents has fallen onto me. DB is the oldest but doesn't get involved with helping them out. They come to me for help with all sorts of things, which I'm happy to do, but they also offload on me, and it's difficult to ignore their heartache, especially when I'm going through the same thing as them.

So you seriously suggested your sil should arrange to see your parents every 2 weeks? That's a lot!! And you see them every 2 months, quite a lot then? I agree more normal if they both worked but hey ho.

Exactly this! I've lost count of the number of times he's sent a card but it's been lost in the post. I've never been the kind of person who gives gifts with the expectation of receiving one back, but I'd rather he didn't lie about sending cards.

I appreciate that, but I think you’re going to end up in the role of “pushy Auntie” if you try to facilitate their relationship with their grandchildren. Next time your parents arrange a visit, don’t come along, for example.

As difficult as this sounds I don’t believe your parents should provide any more financial support to your brother but more to protect themselves.

I have often heard of people saying no way do I want to spend time with x family. It really is each to their own if your older db isn’t more involved then you should discuss with him about caring for your parents but it sounds like forcing your other Db to either allow visits (your family) or engaged is pointless & you should focus effort & time on the family who do want to engage.

Seeing parents every two weeks feels fairly normal to me.

And even more so in this case where the SIL visits her own family pretty much daily

I don't think she should arrange to see them, it's definitely up to DB to arrange things with his family. If they're home, which they nearly always are, if not at SIL's families house around the corner, I don't think it requires much effort on their part to allow my DPs to pop in for a cup of tea every other weekend. To be honest, at this point once a month would be massive progress.

Shout out to Hyacinth Bucket 🙌🙌🙌

I wouldn’t make any more effort. Send them a birthday card with a £10 note when it’s the children’s birthday/Christmas and leave it at that.

Please talk to your DPs and ask them to add up how much money he has had from them, minus whatever little he has paid back and divide it by the number of visits they have been allowed. They can then see what their DS is charging them for their pay-per-view GC. I'd ask them to stop letting him blackmail them like this as he is going to treat them like shit regardless. It probably won't change them but at least you will have tried.

I'd just stick to sending just the DC birthday cards and Christmas cards with tokens for toys or a small gift as I wouldn't trust the adults not to take any cash for themselves. Don't bother sending cards to DB. If he kicks up a fuss, just say his got lost in the post.

There is nothing you can do here. Really there isn't. I have seen this very similar scenario in my own family. Putting pressure on DB/SIL will have no effect and may even make things worse for your parents

Your parents will have to 'fight their own battles' when it comes to dishing out money to your Brother. I understand how annoyed you are with the situation, and your Parents may be upset but your DB is still their child and they will still love him.

I've been exactly where you are and that is all you can do. If you can be certain that your nieces will get any presents, continue to send them in the post- or just turn up unexpectedly and hand them over. Alternatively, put what you would have sent into a savings account for each of them - and once they are older, give it to them?

Yes, I am being serious. No, I don’t click my fingers at waiting staff.

I grew up around people exactly like OP’s SIL and know first hand what a waste of space they are. There’s no such thing as a noble savage. The additional info about her squandering her money and not planning for the future is just typical.

Hahaha, I KNEW it was tattoos they were spending on…! But I didn’t want to suggest it as I’ve been flamed enough already.

Dear Lord, your SIL is just a caricature.

If you had children of your own would you really want them to spend time around these chavs? Maybe see it as a blessing that you can cut contact now due to her being a dick, rather than having to cut it because you wouldn’t want them near your own children.

@CantGetDecentNickname I appreciate what you’re saying, but that’s seriously overstepping the mark. The amount of money her parents give her brother is NONE of her business My DH knows the his parents have “lent” his younger sister money that’ll never be repaid, but he has no idea how much and it’s nothing to do with him.

Unless the OP suspects financial abuse or her parents are unable to manage their own finances, this is their decision.

No shame in it 💁‍♀️

Although Hyacinth socialised with her “less socially elevated” sisters and Onslow, so that did make me judge her 😂

They told me how much it is when we were discussing this situation and they were upset. I wasn't aware that he'd been borrowing money again, but they chose to tell me everything without me actually having to ask as they were annoyed about how they weren't receiving anything back but DB and SIL went and spent hundreds on a long term commitment that will ultimately cost them money every month and will probably result in them falling short again. They've both said that they won't be loaning him any more money but I know they probably will because they can't bear the thought of him ending up in any kind of real debt and would rather he owes it to them.

I've no doubt that they can make sound decisions but my dad is not a well man and I'm worried about this resulting in my DPs ending up in a difficult position themselves and having nothing to fall back on. If this were to happen it would be left to me to support them through it, whilst my older DB and SIL continue to keep their distance.

You’re piggy in the middle between them then and it’s not fair. You can’t change your brother’s behavior and if your parents don’t want to give him any more money, they need to make that decision.

I haven't read the whole thread, but we have a very similar situation.
Difference is my parents do have our nephew once a week so they see him plenty.
Big events though Christmas etc it's always about their family. We always have our parents at ours as they never seem to be invited to theirs because SiL always has her family.
We also have a 3 year old so we're too busy focused on her to care really.
I also find my brother and SiL very uptight about things and just not our sort of people really, not to mention having to book weeks in advance to see them as they're always away or doing stuff with her family.

My advice would be to forget about them.
It's not worth the effort.
Maybe advise your parents not to send any more money, but even then it isn't your business.