Brother and SIL pushing us out of children's lives

[AnnoyedAuntie]

Sorry, this will likely be a long read! My brother and SIL have two DCs who are my parent's only grandchildren and mine and my DB's only nieces. Since the children were born my side of the family have felt very pushed out of their lives, in favour of SIL's family. They're a large, extremely close knit bunch (at each others houses 24/7 or on facetime constantly). At the baby shower for the first born, SIL's mother refused to engage in conversation with our family, and the rest followed suit. Considering her lot made up 90% of those in attendance due to the sheer size of their family, this made us very uncomfortable, like lepers sat in the corner. In hindsight this was a massive indication of how we were going to be treated moving forward.

Since that point we have had to fight for every second we've been allowed to spend with the children. We put in all the effort as they refuse to come to any of our houses as it's too much effort (they don't drive but we all live a short bus journey away and have offered lifts and purchased car seats to help with this. They've taken us up on this offer once). When we arrange to go to them they regularly cancel at the last minute, or generally make you feel unwelcome once you are there. SIL will suddenly have loads of jobs to do, or will sit in the corner on facetime to her family. When it comes to Christmas and birthdays we are never taken into account when planning family visits and are told "sorry, we're doing this and that with SILs family, so you'll have to drop in in the evening midweek", despite the fact that we all work and the children are in bed for six/seven o'clock.

She doesn't work and spends her weekdays at her family's house as they also don't work, so is literally with them from early morning until DB gets home from work. My parents are heartbroken and don't feel like grandparents. On top of this, DB will call them and ask to borrow money as when and they need it and they always give it to him, despite the fact that they don't really have it to lend out. He's absolutely shameless paying pitiful amounts back each month, whilst they both splash the cash they do have on crap they don't need. I don't believe this is a factor in them not wanting to see us, as DB has been like this since he was a teen and doesn't see anything wrong with treating people like that.

I've raised this problem with him in the past, in as polite away as I possibly can, asking him to include our DPs more and try and make seeing them a regular thing. Even if it's just to invite them up for a couple of hours once a fortnight. SIL had an extreme reaction to this and decided I was banned from seeing the children at all. She calmed down following this but my DPs are now scared to say anything that could be taken negatively in case their very limited contact with the children is taken away all together (on average they currently see the children for a couple of hours, at DB's house, around every 3 months).

It feels like a lost cause and I'm at a point where I feel like I just can't be bothered anymore. I'm sick of getting upset about it and seeing my parents so upset about it too. If I say something I risk her flipping her lid and stopping any of us from seeing the children at all. I have one of my niece's birthday presents sat here days after the event because, according to them, they've been too busy with SIL's family for me to even drop in for ten minutes to give this to her. Ahead of one of their birthdays last year my DPs suggested throwing a small party at their house, on whatever day at the weekend works best for DB and SIL, to allow our family to see the children and give gifts etc, but this was refused as they wanted to see SIL's family both days.

Would IBU to just cut contact, keep a distance and post presents to them in future (despite the fact they live a 10 minute drive from us)? Or should I bite the bullet and raise this again for the sake of my parents (and risk SIL losing her shit again and banning contact all together?) I just feel like I can't win!

If you've made it this far, thank you for reading!

I second this. The parents sound nice and DB comes across as a sociopath.

I hope you never find out that it’s not that straightforward. People aren’t robots programmed by their parents. I would suggest the parents try to detach and enjoy spending their money on themselves but I daresay they will be punished further for it. OP, you can’t do much other than remain polite, send birthday gifts to the children and try to detach.

I think I would continue to make an effort to see the children and building relationships with them in this situation, but really lower my expectations. I.e. arrange to see them but half expect them to cancel and have an idea what you would do instead that day if they do cancel. If you get there and SIL ignores you, well focus on the kids and don't worry about it. Don't give DB too much headspace either, easier said than done I would think though.
In terms of birthday gifts as it's a ten minute drive could you make up some excuse about how you were passing and just drop in unannounced at a time you think they would be in? How do you think that would go down?
I think you should back away from getting involved with the relationship between DB and your parents though. I don't understand why they are handing over money when he makes so little effort but ultimately that's up to them, and I think only they can sort it out with him. Sounds like your nieces don't have the best role models in their own parents and I think they need some better people in their lives. So I wouldn't give up altogether but try to accept that your DB and SIL are how they are and make the best of it.

Your brother and SIL sound awful. But I find with people like this, if you want to see the children and have a relationship with them then you just have to play along. It's unfair and so difficult, but your brother and SIL aren't suddenly going to become nice people so I would really try to just keep the peace and make the best of it

SIL hasn't worked since the first child was born. She did start working a few hours a week a little while ago (one shift) but packed this in quite quickly as it was "too much." Her family members have taken a similar path but I try not to judge as I don't have children and have no idea what it's like balancing childcare and work and any effect this has on finances. DB has always had an irresponsible attitude towards money and SIL seems very much the same, spending it whilst she has on pointless things (in my opinion) with not much thought given to the future or budgeting. One of her parents works, the other doesn't. They certainly aren't made of money. I don't know if they don't ask SIL's family for money because they don't have it to lend, or if it's because they wouldn't dream of taking the approach to paying it back that they do with my DPs with hers.

This is so hard OP - we have a similar issue in our family. There are some painful truths for all about this - manipulation, selfishness, control, adult children just not caring about their family / liking their family / not wanting to make effort / not respecting their contribution, being babied by their parents on one side and wanting to pursue that.

A couple of thoughts - the children are key here and it’s sad they don’t benefit. From this, they will learn that not all family matters which is sad. It would be a good approach to continue sending cards / gifts to the children and hoping that your name continues to be spoken based on this. With regard to the adults, I would suggest sitting with your parents and acknowledging the really sad truths above - they are unlikely to be grandparents in the way they want to be. Say the worst case out load, feel the pain, consider how to let it go and stand in support of the children in the small ways they can. Keeping banging against a close door as you are is not helpful to any of you (or the children sadly), long term - and it’s desperately sad for your parents. I’m so sorry, this is really difficult.

There is also the option to have it out with your brother, though this is likely to severe all contact sadly.

I think your SIL is a red herring here and it's actually your DB. It's his responsibility to arrange social contact with his family. He's not arranging that as often as you'd like. There's no right amount of time to socialise with family, only what you are happy with. Maybe he's content with seeing his family every few months. All you can do is keep asking if he wants to meet up with you and try to accept if it's not as often as you'd like.

Once you have DC it can become much more difficult to arrange social occasions. Even if the physical meeting isn't hard (eg going to someone's house for coffee) you just have less headspace for it as there is so much more to have to think about and organise.

In reply to your previous post, my DPs certainly weren't authoritarian.

When it comes down to it, regardless of how my DB treats them, they would never leave any of us in a position where we were in financial trouble if they were in a position to help. My DB and SIL's money problems could easily be solved if they took better care of their finances, but ultimately they're not going to watch him struggle if they can help, much to their own detriment.

@AnnoyedAuntie You sound quite judgemental of your DB and SIL - what they spend their money on, who they spend their time with, the fact they don’t drive, the fact SIL doesn’t work. I wonder if they feel that judgement and that’s why they spend less time with you. It seems you don’t try and understand why their circumstances are the way they are.

So sorry OP, it can be difficult

I feel like we always play 2nd fiddle to dsil dps when it comes to dgd. They always seem to be in first but nothing like you are describing

Feel sorry for your dps being fleeced for money

Just give them space. It's not you

@AnnoyedAuntie
There's a chance your parents could apply to the courts for access. If they can prove they have some kind of existing relationship with them, even if it's only the crumbs they're thrown every 3 months.
They don't necessarily need to employ a Solicitor to apply to the courts either, they could just get a free hour consultation then pay £250 to make an application to court then represent themselves.

Some will come on here and say "Grandparent's rights aren't a thing" etc and try laughing at me but I've been through the process with a friend and it very much IS a thing and DOES get taken seriously in many cases

@TitterYeeNot Are you on the wind up or are you serious?!?! My god I feel for anyone being raised influenced by you, Jesus Christ on a bike. You're the type who clicks their fingers at waiting staff, aren't you??

We haven't seen or heard from them in two years. They literally gave no craps when we walked away. It was really upsetting at first, the realisation that we meant nothing to them but as we slowly got over it we were able think a lot more clearly about how the relationship had been and now realise how spiteful their behaviour was towards us. We tried so hard to get along with them and it was completely one way before you even factor in the nastiness. It's pretty shocking in hindsight. Still upsets me on occasions like around DNs birthdays and Christmas but ultimately we're happier and healthier without the constant heartache of it. And there'll be other special people in our lives and our energy time and money is much better spent on people who value us as much as we do them. Can't wait for my sister to start having babies because I am so ready to be an amazing aunty! We're really close to my side of the family so that really helped us through it.

I suppose I am judging them for their spending, but only because they've borrowed large amounts of money from my parents, aren't really paying them back, and then continue to ask them for money. I don't think that tattoos and fancy kitchen bins should be their priority, but that's just my opinion. I don't judge who they spend their time with, I just think they should also make the time to see my DPs, particularly when my DP's are extremely flexible and are happy to do this in whatever way is easiest for them. I don't judge that they don't drive - I also don't drive. I also don't judge that my SIL doesn't work as how they choose to approach childcare etc is up to them, I have no idea how this should be approached as I don't have children.

Your DB sounds under the thumb. He needs to stand up for himself and invite you round.

If he is not willing to do this then there is nothing you can do.

Your parents shouldn't be loaning money if they're upset about not seeing their grandchildren. Why don't they agree to loan money then can sort out transferring it next time Your DB and the kids are visiting...

OP you could be my best friend - she went through the exact thing with her waste of space brother and SIL.

They live 10 minutes away from BF’s mum but she has not seen her grandchildren properly for close to 10 years now. Like you SIL’s family was priority. BF and her mum always had an open door, invited them over, bought presents etc but it was like banging a brick wall. Eventually my BF lost it as she was sick of seeing her mum so upset so went to their door and told them exactly what she thought of them

She knew herself it was not the most mature response but by that point she knew nothing would change and both she and her mum now feel it’s a weight off their shoulder now that the hope and expectation is now gone. For her the outburst was cathartic and she does see her niece and nephews in town and will always stop and say hello as they are much older now so are often out and about without their parents

In all fairness OP, he treats you all like shit yet you still beg for scraps. Why would he change? I would cut all contact if I were you, encourage your parents to do the same. No its not ideal, those children are your family but this dynamic will never change so the options are, cut them off or suck it up. I certainly would t be 'spoiling the children' what does that teach them? Just helps to create more entitled, fucked up adults amd the world needs fewer of them.

You seem to be blaming SIL more than your DB, even though he is the one seemingly not facilitating a relationship with his family (except to take money). Your issue should be with him more than it is her.

Haven’t RTFT, but one comment I agree with is that your parents’ relationship with their grandchildren is separate from your relationship with your nieces. They’re not an extension of your nuclear family, IYSWIM, they’re your brother’s nuclear family.

So I’d let your parents handle their relationship with your brothers’ family and you focus on yours. My eldest SIL made this mistake with her DH’s siblings, assuming that they’d be included, and it caused problems. I believe the situation has improved now that she’s backed off.

I still don’t understand why you think you have any right to see these children.

I’m essentially agreeing with @TomatoFrog They’re not “your”
family.

She sounds like a Twat

The problem is your db, he would be organising and facilitating your family spending time with the children but instead he is happy to default to sil who for some reason or another prefers her family. You can't change her buy you can tell him that you are all hurt he doesn't include you more. At the end of the day it isn't really her job to facilitate this although I know many women, myself included do.

I'm not trying to claim a right to them. I haven't, and wouldn't, go banging on their door demanding access to them. However, my DB hasn't said that he doesn't want to be a part of our family, or that he doesn't want the children to be part of our family. He expects my parents to support him when he requests it, whether it's financial or otherwise, he expects birthday and Christmas cards and presents for himself, he expects them for his children, but he doesn't want to facilitate us spending time with them.

I don't understand why you're so critical of my DP's parenting style or my families desire to be part of their GCs/DNs lives?