To think society is misogynistic and often toxic about infertility?

[leaveitnow1244]

So, hear me out,

I just put into tiktok and Instagram infertility and have scrolled through hundreds and hundreds of women devastated by infertility.

Not one male? I understand men aren't as open with emotions but I still find it very odd that not one man is devastated about infertility to make content about it, really?! Not one.

It made me think, are men just not that bothered and most of the time dragged along this parenting journey? (Of course I know some men are upset by infertility I'm not saying every single guy is unbothered but it strikes me as very odd that not one single man wants to voice his opinion on it)

Now the next thing is, every single piece of information is about the devastation of infertility. Not one helpful bit of information about the positives it can bring, or how to positively deal with it instead of letting it crush your whole life.

Nothing about how not everyone suffering infertility is 'devastated' and some just accept it and can still be relatively happy.

I was saddened by how toxic these messages are and how infertility appears to be one narrative - it's the most terrible thing that can happen to a woman.

That's not helpful to everyone, at all.

I'm infertile and of course, have bad days but on the whole I'm quite happy with life and not Devastated but this stuff made me feel like maybe I should be.

It's just sad how society makes us feel like women should lose hope with life basically if they can't have children. It's very sad.

I have been ttc my first for 5.5 years and have had 6 miscarriages in that time. We have needed ivf as we have infertility as well as recurrent losses. It's completely exhausting.

I got consumed with Instagram and connected with a lot of women all going through similar experiences to me. One by one, they all have had their children and I'm still in the same position. I'd have supportive messages for a while that slowly turned to 'you deserve it, you're next, you'll get your baby, keep going' etc but now the messages have dried up. I'm no longer sharing what's happening for us and that has been positive for my mental health. I don't go on Instagram anymore either.

The difficulty is, when I was in the thick of ivf cycles I absolutely did not want to hear or read about life after infertility, living childfree or the positives of it not working out. I was not open to that. But I have also got to the point now where I didn't feel hope from other people's successes.

The best thing for me was to take a break from everything, no ttc, no social media, no sharing or talking about what has happened, no counselling. Just living my life, reconnecting with my husband. I'm now in a place where I'm more at peace with it not happening for us. That desperate desire for a child has calmed down. We are not doing ivf but giving it a try with support of a specialist. We have lost so much over the last 5.5 years and there's definitely been a shift for us. But I don't want to talk about it anymore. I think there's probably others like me, but talking and sharing on social media doesn't feel necessary because then it's still linked to children / infertility when the reality is, it's just us living our life, so I don't need to seek out a new 'community' or advice on how to be positive about my life.

I don't think you get to police people's feelings but yes, a part of why women are more devastated by it than men is that we are brought up playing dollies, told we will want a family etc.

What I would like to see change is the information given out about fertility. I know of two couples that struggled to conceive. Both didn't start trying till 33+ and the men were then genuinely surprised by the fact that fertility in women drops off after 35 or so being a factor. Despite the fact their girlfriends had made it clear that this was why marriage was important for them because of the vulnerability of pregnancy, both men dragged their feet with marriage and did the whole 'we don't need a piece of paper' dance. Late marriage followed by late trying to conceive means one of the couples is having to consider what's next as don't qualify for IVF on NHS. Perhaps if society stopped pretending women just want marriage for Instagram and a pretty dress and that it's an important legal protection, and that if you are serious about wanting children you should be able to say so without coming across as 'desperate or crazy' then people would begin at an earlier time and have less need of intervention. The friends going through this have wanted children from the start of the relationships, been fairly open about it, but because of 'cool girl' syndrome they had to wait for their partners to be ready.
There's not enough honesty about fertility and aged celebrities using IVF and surrogacy don't help the narrative that you can have children as late as you like.

Infertility doesn’t effect mainly under 40s though; granted they are the age range that are most likely to be fresh in the throes of diagnosis; but actually; if you look at older age brackets; many of them have real, lived experience of the long-term impacts of infertility; and you are probably more likely to hear stories of elder people living well after infertility.

My great gran got married young and had 2 kids really young (late teens) and her husband died in his early 20s. She remarried and her second husband was obviously infertile, or my grandma had developed secondary infertility, as they were unable to conceive a child together. She was obviously sad about it at the time, especially around her husband being unable to have his “own” children (bearing in mind the obvious differences in family structures in the 1920s!) however they built a lovely life together.

Maybe they just don't create videos about it. 🙄

I think I have realised just how hard motherhood can be, from reading Mumsnet and other sources, especially if you have a rubbish DH or partner, and realising there are many aspects of motherhood I’m happy to have missed out on, being grateful for what I have, a wonderful husband, financial security and freedom, and the fact I was able to take early retirement at 58 on a good pension which I probably could not have afforded if we’d had kids, putting them through uni, house deposits etc.

YABU that you are using instagram and tik tok as reliable sources of information tbh! What did you really expect?

If somebody has accepted it maybe they don’t feel the need to splash it on social media.
As for men, it’s still a taboo so I don’t get your oh the misogyny point.

@AgnesX well that wouldn't make sense. By coincidence only the people devastated create videos?

I'm also not just talking videos, I'm talking all social media. You know that thing that the majority of the world use. Including MN for example

Up until fairly recently in human history it was the woman's fault for infertility. The symbol for fertility is a pregnant healthy woman, not a virile healthy young man. Yes there is misogyny and stigma on women but I know men get ripped and their manhood and masculinity ridiculed for being infertile. If it was his wife who is infertile I think the comments would be leave her or adopt. If it was him who is infertile, well we know the type of 'jokes' they'd get. I think women get more support because they speak up about it and because our 'plumbing' and role in carrying a pregnancy is bigger and for longer than men's so it seems more of the blame or responsibility is placed on the woman which is horribly unfair and cruel.

Posting version of doom scrolling.

I was just thinking.

Years ago I read an interview with Carol Kirkwood and she touched on not being able to have children. I used to work with an older woman who hadn't been able to have children either.

Both seemed to acknowledge the hurt, but there was nothing they could do, no IVF. They made lives for themselves and had a great time. Maybe it was better for them that there wasn't anything to be done ... I don't know.

But then nowadays you get the sense that you HAVE to do IVF. I got totally rounded on a while ago for daring to say I'd had reservations about it.

@Twizbe who rounded on you?

Also why did you have reservations if you don't mind me asking as it's the next step for me and I too have reservations about it

@Twizbe good point, there is pressure to 'prove' that you want it hard enough and that you tried hard enough. But I can see others disagreeing with the principle of IVF and saying things like: perhaps you should accept it it, it's nature's way telling you something which I think is very cruel and not my view but there was a poster on a different thread who said this about their own infertility so this unfortunately gets said or internalised.

Op if you want to find people celebrating it look under the term child free. Many people on sites about child free status say that they use that term instead of fertility status. Lots of accounts online on forums.

Gateway women founded by jody day is entirely about how to life a positive life with infertility. She wrote a book called “Living the life unexpected - how to find hope, meaning and a fulfilling future without children”Gateway women

im infertile so my DH is therefore childless. We find he’s rarely asked about it.

But are those not more widely benefits of being child free than being infertile? It’s undeniable that being child free has massive benefits; but there is no benefit to not being able to make that choice.

it’s also quite a bit more nuanced in my opinion. For example, if a couple choose to not explore assisted fertility as an option, maybe their ability to accept being child free is greater than a couple who do round after round of IVF; selling their home and borrowing tens of thousands of additional pounds to fund it. And the couple who carry out rounds and rounds of IVF without success may find it easier to cope with than the couple who can easily get pregnant; but their children have all had fatal foetal conditions which has resulted in many stillbirths.

I think the point is nobody’s situation is identical, and nobody reacts identically even in an identical situation.

My reproductive history seems traumatic to many (I’ve had loads of miscarriages, two ectopic pregnancies, I was told that with every pregnancy I’d have roughy a 50% chance of miscarriage and a 1/3 chance of an ectopic pregnancy; but I’m unlikely to get pregnant naturally anyway because my tubes are screwed, and I don’t qualify for assisted conception on the NHS) however, I kind of accepted everything as it happened and was able to move forward. And then I conceived my son, with absolutely no assistance.

Here on mumsnet. I was talking about my own personal views and they took offence.

I struggled with a feeling of perhaps children weren't meant to be for us. We had unexplained infertility so it wasn't like there was something wrong or that needed fixing. It just wasn't working.

By the time we'd got to IVF I'd started to make peace with being childless (it would have always been childless not child free for me) so part of me was questioning whether we should be playing god.

It was a very personal thought and i don't think IVF children shouldn't exist or anything like that. It was my personal feelings at the time.

FWIW I did get pregnant naturally eventually. When it came time to try for a second I said immediately that I wasn't going through testing and I wasn't going to do IVF. I had made peace with having just one and I didn't want to go through the whole process again. I was lucky and second time round was much quicker and easier.

@Cicily childfree tends to be people that chose not to have children mainly in my experience, it's a different experience entirely

It made me think, are men just not that bothered and most of the time dragged along this parenting journey?

Men as a part of the human species? No, hardly. Most of the control of women is directed at keeping control of breeding stock, and yes that is meant to be offensive because I consider the control of women offensive. In some other cultures, historic and current, men have status by the number of men they kill, the number of wives they own and the number of children they have.

In Nordic countries, in some other older European, and in some other older Middle Eastern cultures, men and women are life partners who take equal joy in parenting and have equal wishes for healthy children.

Modern British / little American society has this weirdness where sex is pushed - literally, sold - as a general good which men still gain status while women still lose status By engaging in. But increasingly men think they are entitled to take with no consequences. But there is still a lot of individual variation - and also a lot of variation from memories of different times. This is not the same country I was born into although I’m only 50 miles from my birthplace, it has changed so much over time.

We are the cultural species beyond all others. The current cultural trends are pretty disgusting to me and look like a socio-economic breakdown. At the least, we have capacity for change, if only whoever holds control allows it. Sorry this was long.

It’s also notable how, when we look at other cultures in time and through history, we tend to to pick times that are similar to our own or look for values that are similar to our own - and potentially, reinterpret them in terms of our own. Women’s status is clearly more variable than men’s, and more often is closely associated with looking after children - but other specialisations are possible and have been made in the past. Actually, this could be a lot longer!

Perhaps it’s different if your situation is not being unable to conceive but being unable to stay pregnant. I never had a bfp from the time we started ttc to my last period - 21 years. We had six IVF cycles producing fewer and fewer eggs and then I was told I had premature ovarian failure - at age 39 and that it there was no point in doing it any more. Donor eggs not an option for us. It was unexplained infertility - which does not mean there’s nothing wrong, it means they can’t find what is wrong and therefore can’t fix it.

Congratulations on having your son though.

I take the point but given that the culture of men sharing their feelings is still shifting then it's unlikely they would do it on a video?

It most definitely is different, which was kind of my point. Even though the journey through infertility was different, the end result would have been the same. And my friend who was in a similar situation to you (although got her son on her final ever IVF cycle!) found my situation far worse; and I found hers worse. She felt that to get pregnant and then lose a baby was way more heartbreaking than to not get pregnant; because I had my hopes dashed; whereas she never really had a hope in the first place (her only bfp is her son; she has no money for more IVF so her son will almost certainly be her only child)

Its all about perspective and how you react to situations, I guess.

What you've noticed is that men tend to not engage with a TikTok about infertility that you have posted. That is all.

I 'get' you, leaveitnow. My parents had infertility problems, were married 18-19 years before they took me in. During that time, my mother did absolutely nothing with her life, never worked (except part time during the war when everyone had to do something), just felt sad, even bitter, about not having a child.

It's encouraging to read a post like yours. A life without children has many possibilities that can be extremely fulfilling; it's sad but if you can come to terms with it, it's good. I have known some infertile couples who have embraced opportunities and enjoyed life, also helped many others.

Men generally don't bare their souls on personal issues like that. I'm pretty sure, if we had had such problems, my husband wouldn't have said a word to anyone. However he still would have felt it.