To think diversity and inclusion in employment rarely includes age

[teneastereggs]

Just that really. I've noticed that there's a lot more emphasis on diversity, which is great, but then for example even in the photos of staff they're all young. It doesn't feel to me as if diversity in workplaces has extended to age yet. AIBU?

One of the notable things is, it seems to be older peoples experience. But they're told it's not happening. Again, that wouldn't happen with other forms of inclusion, rightly so.

Not OFFENDING trans people, I meant.

In terms of reactions at interviews that's shitty and I'm sorry that's happened to you!

In terms of getting an interview, leave your date of birth, your dates of education off your CV and you only need so many years employment history on your CV not all of it. In case you think you are being screened out on your age (a lot of job adverts go through recruiters and we have stopped using recruitment agencies before when we have felt they are being biased but it's hard to suss out sometimes which means the bias may or may not come from the company you are applying for)

I've never really seen job adverts where there are things like photos of company outings and holidays but then I work in data so I'm an extrovert in a sea of introverts who would hate the idea of a company holiday so I totally might miss this

But wording, especially wording that refers to young people is discrimination and appalling.

In terms of claims of diversity which leave people out over the age of 35 (and I am over this age) what would you like to see that would make you not feel like that? We dont avtively mention age diversity on our job adverts although we do mention some other forms of diversity so I wonder if we are missing something out without intending to

Certain companies and departments are heavily skewed towards younger people. In my last job the accountancy department was old while the design department was young. Basically all of the fun and exciting jobs are for young people only, and they only want to hire young people. Big companies will hire older people but small startups only want young people.

In some cases being young isn’t enough either, you also have to be free and single, able to work overtime and participate in team building activities and alcoholic drinks after work. It’s disproportionately young people who have that sort of freedom.

@Tarantellah Big companies will hire older people but small startups only want young people.

Because they are cheaper. Older people are not being discriminated against because younger people in startups are expected to work for low salaries, so unpaid over time and get pressured into company socialising.

Basically all of the fun and exciting jobs are for young people only, and they only want to hire young people.

Name me a ‘fun and exciting’ job that is well paid and only for young people?

The reality is smaller companies starting out use ‘free beer in a Friday’ as an excuse for lower wages.

yabu. My work has a committee to look at equality across the generations and issues affecting different age groups. Maybe there’s things you can do to raise awareness in your own workplace? Is there a D&I group you could join and start making your voice heard?

Thanks Mycathatesmecuddling I already leave things like age off my CV, and leave out some earlier jobs, for that reason. I've had issues with recruitment agencies for temping, so it's interesting. (I'm sure there are recruitment agencies which aren't like that.) I'd not want to do holidays and outings particularly either. Not an age thing like you say I suppose

In terms of what would help, I've seen lately one or two companies say if you don't meet every single criteria you can still apply, and I think that helps, and also if the ads did mention that the company welcomes applicants of any age, or something like that. I think often the person recruiting will have a picture of who they want, and even though they may now be more open to say a black or disabled applicant (although they no doubt still regularly face discrimination in reality) the mental picture wouldn't be someone older, say over 45.

Asking for young people or things around that. Sometimes it'll specify they want a young person for their team.

I’d like to see examples of this. As I’ve never seen anything of the kind, possibly because it is extremely illegal.

So true, you can be anything at all except over 50

And to be honest, when I was job hunting at 45 I didn't find it easy. I got a job eventually and it's secure luckily but ageism in recruitment starts young. Men of 70 something can be the primeminister (in the states) and yet women of 45 won't get called to an interview.

I wouldn't leave my job now due to ageism. I'm apparently too old to be given a chance. But it's madness, I'm only sitting at a desk, one floor up. When I retire I'm going to walk the camino

I was a SAHM for a number of years as DH’s job and no family support meant it was the only way it worked. A variety of part time jobs is the only work experience I have in the last decade and none of it is particularly useful for an office based job which is what I wanted to return to. I have been turned down for loads of jobs and it seems no one is prepared to train someone in their fifties even though I would be likely to stay longer than a younger employee. I have ended up doing yet another minimum wage job because I want to work but I am capable of so much more, it’s very frustrating.

YANBU. I'm old and in a very trendy area and company that skews very young and is very focused on D&I initiatives. It's very clear that D&I focuses on gender+gender identity and race solely and look confused when I raise that I am in a protected category. While it's also clear that many younger people think people of my age cannot have the skills to be successful.

Plenty of job ads say things like we are a young team, or they'll say things like you should be all over all the socials (social media) or they'll ask you to send in a video of yourself before you get an interview. People are saying they do have employees who are older but don't want to be in the promo photos, well those people wouldn't want to send in a video to apply for a job. If you're 50 you'd think young people will just laugh at your video.

Just to reflect a differing viewpoint - I've just started a new job in a medium size startup firm (around 450 employees) and I'm 53. I held off applying for the position for ages as I thought I'd be too old. Turns out I'm not - they employ people of all ages. There are good companies out there.

While it's also clear that many younger people think people of my age cannot have the skills to be successful.

I think so and also, even if it took someone slightly longer at the outset, well that would be a reasonable adjustment surely. Companies are nowadays happy to make adjustments eg for dyslexic people -which is great and how it should be- but they wouldn't give an older person a week extra to learn some tech if they needed it (of course there's plenty of older people who are highly able already int these areas.)

That's good to know OhMrDarcy and congratulations on your new job.

Younger people are not cheaper. The job has been advertised with a salary, and someone has applied so presumably they’re happy to accept that salary. The person’s age is irrelevant to what salary they’re willing to accept. If I’m happy being paid 25k then why does it matter if I’m 21 or 51?

And you will find that jobs in design, social media, app development, and often PR etc are considered to be only for young people. Because older people are dinosaurs and can’t possibly understand modern trends or be on the ball or cutting edge.

So, you don’t want to do the things they require, or have the skills they are looking for (social media promotion), but the issue is them?

So, you don’t want to do the things they require, or have the skills they are looking for (social media promotion), but the issue is them?

Not at all, and I'm okay at social media and would be happy to do it. The point is, the ads make it so that it's pretty clear they want a young person. You seem intent on saying there's no issue, but the experience of people in the age group is that there is an issue.

Yes, but older people aren’t applying for those less well paid jobs. That’s her point. Younger people will apply for the startup jobs and work long hours for limited pay and the ‘perks’ of free booze and ping pong tables. Older people won’t. So, younger people are definitely cheaper.

Yes, I'm surprised that people are posting to disagree with you
At one point I wondered if I would be unemployed forever! I'm in Ireland not the UK but it is the same story here. Lots of initiatives to include everybody except women and older women. I do not have a degree, and as I used to work abroad my experience was niche is and not relevant here. So when my DC were finally old enough for me not to have to offset the cost of childcare against income, (and as a single parent I had to consider this) I was basically a competent 45 year old with good communication skills but no qualifications, no valuable relevant experiences. I do understand why I wasn't snapped up, but still, 20 year olds with no experience don't need to worry about that.

I formatted my experience in to transferrable competencies and I did get a job EVENTUALLY. After seeing a career coach! What 20 year old needs to do that to get a job. But omg, I was rejected from so many financial institutions because I didn't have the QFA (they brought that in after the crash and I guess it was for the best, but more regulation would probably be better than torturing employees with exams in theory not relevant to their actual job). I wasn't looking down on any type of work but when I applied for jobs in shops the attitude was ''think you're too good for this I bet''. Because I had no retail experience and a posh accent they thought. I never had any delusions of grandeur though, or no sense of entitlement. I understood why it was hard for me to get back in to the workplace.

Funny story that kind of proves our point, I had a friend from school who lost a decade to weed. He said he used to get up at about 11, go to the shop to get milk and bread and then watch tv on the sofa, for a DECADE then he had an epiphany and sought help. Not that easy, took him three years to not just give up but get a plan, get motivated, rid himself of anxieties and social phobias. Anyway, we were both job hunting at the same time and guess who got job offers first? The mother who'd been getting her dc to school for 0830 every day for a decade or the man who'd cruised through a foggy decade jumping in to the air with fear when the postman made a noise. Take a guess which of us the recruitment agents favoured?!?!

I returned to the workplace when I was in my middle sixties and can honestly say I never experienced an age problem. This was in transport.

If you’re okay at social media and happy to send in a video, then why are you stating those things as excluding older people?

The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’. You have been presented with stats from numerous sources that demonstrate there clearly isn’t an issue. You’re ignoring those, because they’re not reflective of your personal experience.

OPs the one saying older people aren’t able to submit a video application. If you want to work in tech, user design, graphics or all these so called younger areas and can’t record a video and sent it digitally then you are obviously not cut out for the role.

Of course salaries are typically linked to experience and therefore age! It’s why we literally have a 2 tier system in terms of younger people on NMW or the benefits system. Where is your outrage over that?

According to ONS

• Ages 16-17: £10,910
• Ages 18-21: £17,284
• Ages 22-29: £24,600
• Ages 30-39: £30,865
• Ages 40-49: £33,477
• Ages 50-59: £31,358
• Ages 60+: £27,508

This is average earnings and doesn’t take into account that many people chose to work on reduced hours close to retirement.

Looking at this further is where it gets interesting

• Ages 18-21: £26,208
• Ages 22-29: £43,094
• Ages 30-39: £61,058
• Ages 40-49: £73,236
• Ages 50-59: £68,901
• Ages 60+: £59,691

This is the amount you would need to earn to be in the top 10% of incomes by age. Only 26k as a 21 year old which is a massive difference to nearly 70k as a 59 year old!

Yes, but older people aren’t applying for those less well paid jobs. That’s her point. Younger people will apply for the startup jobs and work long hours for limited pay and the ‘perks’ of free booze and ping pong tables. Older people won’t. So, younger people are definitely cheaper.

For older people though, these ads were it's like 'we've got a ping pong table in the office and have a free drink on Friday afternoons' may as well say 'no old people' so that's probably why they don't apply.

OPs the one saying older people aren’t able to submit a video application. If you want to work in tech, user design, graphics or all these so called younger areas and can’t record a video and sent it digitally then you are obviously not cut out for the role.

I personally don't want to record a video, it's not that I can't. And a video of a 50 something is likely to be laughed at or binned, that's the reality.

Albiboba I dont want unfair pay for young people. Also I just think the figures you've posted dont relate to women who've taken time out to raise children and things like that. This assumption that older people expect high wages could be fuelling the problem. Older people can be in situations where they're just not being considered for roles in the first place.