Government Behaviour Hub pushing zero tolerance in schools

[Usedtodance]

I've just been reading how the Behaviour Hub set up by the government has been pushing this idea of very strict behaviour policies and zero tolerance in schools. The sort rolled out by many of the academy chains. Does anyone know what the evidence base is for this?

The policies in many of these schools are highly restrictive - short lunch breaks, limited access to toilet breaks, consequences for minor mistakes. Many adults would find it stressful to be in an environment like this. I wonder if anyone has looked at the cost of these measures to the children in terms of their mental health, fostering independence and social skills etc.

Any insight, thoughts or links to research on this would be great.

I was talking to my 16 year old DS about toilets at school, and he just said that everyone knows not to drink anything during the school day because there isnt time to use the toilets, and they are locked at lunchtime a lot of the time.
Yes it is good for compliance, but it isn't good healthwise. I guess you could argue that teachers do this, so it is good practise for adult life. (I did this as a teacher for 15 years and suffered chronic UTIs as a result. )

Students are spoken to constantly, I dont know where you get the idea that they are not.

I actually took my DCs out of a zero tolerance school when my son had racked up days in isolation for not being able to track the teacher with his lazy eye, and my 14 year old DD was desperate to go on the contraceptive injection because she was terrified of getting her period at school and not being allowed to go to the toilet.
They are now thriving at the new school (although they now have the problem of not having time to go to the toilet at lunchtime if they are doing activities.)

Well said!

I grew up in the Netherlands and technically, we had zero tolerance in our school. No uniform, so no nonsense about that - but bullying was dealt with hard, disruptive behaviour in class was a same day detention.

Aside from that things were much more pragmatic. Teachers didn't mark homework outside of school unless it was a piece of work that counted towards your termly report. Not doing it meant a zero score, which pulled down your average grade. And because all termly reports counted (weighted) towards your end of year report, a zero score did damage. It was up to the individual pupil (and their parents) to take responsibility for that. In the Dutch system you could (and still can) be held back a year if your grades were not good enough.

Didn't have your pen and your equipment and couldn't do the work? You'd get left behind and increase your risk of a failing grade. Again, responsibility. Didn't have your PE kit? You had to use the hideous stuff in the Lost and Found (yes, it was washed) and do PE anyway.

No nitpicking and draconian rules needed.

"Are you suggesting that the boys at Westminster are not well behaved?
I live nearby and see them every day living around and going to sports- I have never seen any poor behaviour

(unlike another local independent school)"

@massivenamechnage I think the poster was referring to the House of Commons not the public school!

I did work in a support role in secondary school that didn't have much directly to do with children but this was only last year and I know what lesson change over time is like but schools are loud, dramatic places and the drama isn't only one way. I had an office(broom cupboard) near the loos, no other teachers or SLT had rooms/offices there so I heard and saw loads but from a perspective of a person that was previously in a very different sector of work (politics) I could see that lots of the drama about minor infringements just escalates stuff, especially with the children who are perhaps not getting much attention at home or the attention is negative. I would see an average, compliant pupil, quickly get their phone out to check it as they were going outside for lunch so not lesson time and a teacher behind would loudly pull them aside, give them a dressing down, a detention as no phones allowed. Same with coats on in the corridor, about to go outside in the rain and it would be sometimes like WW3 was about to break out over a coat! This doesn't get anyone prepared for working life unless you are going in to the army/police force! I left because it is incredibly poorly paid sector for the work I do but I don't know how anyone gets any work done in such a loud and aggressive environment. Work in other areas of life is just not like that. You show mutual respect. I have an almost 16 year old that is top group for everything and is well behaved, charismatic, I never feel the need to speak to him with no manners and both my DC say that this happens loads in their school. These are both very middle class schools with children that are not exactly that rebellious. I used to go to school in London in the 90s and it was akin to Grange Hill with the behaviour- proper fights breaking out on the playground and it was dealt with but not every child was spoken to like they were the teachers' adversaries, if you were pleasant and well mannered, it was reciprocated, it was proportionate and I definitely remember wearing my coat inside if I was about to go outside. I think lots of this is just a misuse of teachers' energy. I concur with a PP and found where I used to work if the cheeky children bust in to my office, some even fell in and rolled around momentarily play fighting, I would ask them to please get up and leave, I didn't do a dizzy dance, call SLT and create a massive crisis as that is what they want. I would disarm cheeky kids with an, 'are you ok? can I help you?' as they expected me to kick off about their rude entrance in to my office as that is what most teachers would do. These children were well known and they don't really expect you to say that, they expect you to be loud and negative as that is the attention they are after.

The key word is try

Talk to. For some that might be well done nice work for others that might be a longer conversation. I've never been in a class where I haven't at least tried to say something positive to every child in that class.

With some kids i might not know their name but i know their trying to get an adhd diagnosis or that They dint want to borrow my "special pen" because thats too much pressure and they are worried theyll let you down

May not always succeed but you try. And when you fail you try and do better next time.

So trying to talk and build a relationship with every child can come down to saying well done. I don't think that is particularly revolutionary, I'd be amazed if most teachers don't say at least two words to their pupils in the course of a week.

I think you are imagining you are doing something very different to other teachers.

God no i agree. My comment was in ammazement at response to the teacher that didn't feel able to build relationships with kids they saw 3 hours a week.

@ancientgran

It’s called super teacher complex and there is a lot of evidence that it leads to toxic work environments. The teachers who think giving the kids what they want, instead of striking a balance between want and need, and end up setting kids up to fail.

I call it ‘But they’re well behaved for me’ syndrome.

You can be strict without being mean. You can have standards and not be an arsehole.

There is a very good book about it called Radical Candor.

Maybe it didn't come over how you meant it then. Sounded like you were doing something quite amazing with those conversations and relationships at a thousand a week.

Thanks for the explanation. I thought my maths was going off the rails and to be fair it wasn't my best subject and I left school 54 years ago and I don't suppose it has magically improved.

God no.

It was more being horrified that anyone could be in teaching and not build bonds with kids they see 3 hours a week every week.

If I can try, see value and very occasionally succeed with the number of kids I see perhaps once a fortnight I'm at a loss why you wouldn't think you couldn't with the limited number you see weekly.

At that point I do wonder if the system has burnt you out

Funny places schools.

Let's stick children together in their hordes, which is totally against natural families which are multi-generational. Let's have so many children that draconian and petty rules become a necessity for the sake of everyone's protection. Let's value these petty rules over and above learning.

It's all a mess.

Not sure why the system would burn me out, I was never a teacher and I'm retired from the job I actually did do.

I don't think you were the one who said it. The you was more hypothetical

You can use a right to choose nhs provider @RedToothBrush , to get a much quicker assessment. You might have to travel out of the county you are in, but some ADHD assessments can be done online.

it is very easy to build up a relationship with kids you see 3 hours a week, as long as you have a chance to deal with them individually, or in pairs, not as a pack of children behaving in a feral manner, which precludes any meaningful communication.

If you have 10 classes, and packs of 5-10 in each class, that is 50-100 students using pack behaviour as a way of disrupting lessons and avoiding meaningful communication.

No, you cant get to know them and discuss their behaviour in these gangs. You need to have time for one-to-one conversation - so 50 - 100 children needing one-to-one conversations of say 10-15 minutes each...

so 8-25 hours a week just talking through their behaviour with them? and then all the time required to record and report the conversations?

Simply not possible. and also, not related to education!

You need a strict , structured, ordered school to prevent these packs forming, then you can get to know your students, through supporting and teaching them

@AM130674 We never had anyone knock at the door, nothing, which seems to me the school were brushing under the carpet, let the bullied child leave quietly ………just my thoughts.

Is it you refusing to send your DD or is she refusing to go. If my memory serves me correct the school have certain protocol to follow for DC refusing, you just tell them she won’t go, they have to act upon this (ours was useless) then apply for other schools, in my area you have to apply to find out where your position on waiting list. You are then actively trying to resolve your DDs attendance and if the LEA turn up on your doorstep you can tell them this. If you don’t get another school place in the first instance, appeal citing the bullying, mental health, etc, sometimes this is enough for a school to create a place.

The whole situation makes my blood boil, it was my DD that missed out on school through no fault of her own, the bullies won - they got to stay and moved on to some other poor soul, I wish I could have done more and created merryhell but seeing the state of my DDs mental health I just had to focus on getting her out and into a safe place.

Straight forward and builds accountability & responsibility. I'm in favour!

Unfortunately I think, the difference in England is the high pressure environment based on outcomes and results. Pressure from the DfE on school leaders. Ofsted. Parents.

In the UK system we daren't let a child get a zero, because the end results would be too low, risking the high pressure mentioned above

Thank you this is so helpful.

DD is begging not to go back, she is terrified and rightly so. She cries and shakes even when I openly talk about the situation. She has been completely ostracised from her whole peer group. I will fight this with every bone in my body. I have reached out to LA for guidance and I have sent one application already. She has studied every day so far she has been home.

I am keeping a paper trail of everything and I am going to her current school for a meeting on 18th April as I want to understand how the rules allows the bullies a slap on the wrist.

Department of Education guidance @AM130674

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-attendance/framework-for-securing-full-attendance-actions-for-schools-and-local-authorities

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mental-health-issues-affecting-a-pupils-attendance-guidance-for-schools

A compliant child will become a compliant adult.

Thank you for sending these, I'll take a look at these.

For reference, my DD has no bad marks apart from the detention a couple of weeks ago for not handing in her merit card. And her attendance is excellent.