Government Behaviour Hub pushing zero tolerance in schools

[Usedtodance]

I've just been reading how the Behaviour Hub set up by the government has been pushing this idea of very strict behaviour policies and zero tolerance in schools. The sort rolled out by many of the academy chains. Does anyone know what the evidence base is for this?

The policies in many of these schools are highly restrictive - short lunch breaks, limited access to toilet breaks, consequences for minor mistakes. Many adults would find it stressful to be in an environment like this. I wonder if anyone has looked at the cost of these measures to the children in terms of their mental health, fostering independence and social skills etc.

Any insight, thoughts or links to research on this would be great.

There is absolutely nothing to stop you setting up a school or training as a teacher

Please please do it!

The whole education system is desperate for any fresh meat living body prepared to try their hand at standing up in front of a classroom for a short while

At worst, we get an extra body in front of a class, possibly avoiding having to combine classes in the gym for lack of teachers, maybe for a year or possibly two until you burn out!

At best it turns out you really do have all the answers that nobody, even with decades of experience has ever thought of before, and you transform the whole system overnight!

win win situation all round!

( who cares about being called an interfering cunt? Do you actually think this is the low bar of abuse staff are subjected to daily?)

I supply. One week I may encounter over 1000 children.

I still try and talk to/build a relationship with every child I meet. Regardless of whether they disrupt my lesson or not, whether I know I am going to see them ever again or not

Some of the ones who are the most disruptive are the ones who are the most interesting to talk to and who need that interaction the most.

When they come up to you two weeks/month later as say remember me? And you do (sometimes with a little prompting of remind me) you know how much that means to them. They try a little harder, they may not succeed, but you're worth trying for.

The idea that you can't build a relationship with a child you see for 3 hours every week, however feral, is beyond me.

Oh FGS. Some of you have watched too many episodes of Glee. Teachers aren’t there to be Bessie mates with pupils - they have no obligation to get cosy with the little turds who interrupt lessons and life for others, for whatever reason.

High standards in small things (things you might think minor, like uniform) lead to high standards in major things (like results)

No they don't.

Both zero tolerance schools near have been downgraded recently and have the lowest progress 8 schools.

Incidentally the 2 that have the relaxed uniform (polo and sweatshirt) have highest progress 8 and remain the best schools in the area and over subscribed.

Tackling behaviour is necessary. Sanctions are necessary and parental support is absolutely a game changer.

But being afraid to make a simple mistake is bad for MH.

Any adult would feel the same in a workplace where they couldn't relax or were afraid. In fact they'd be told to quit.

Forgot a pen? Why a sanction and massive deal rather than teach children to ask to borrow one and other children to lend one. It's basic human nature.

One of the schools near me does uniform inspections into every lesson. The wasted learning time is inexcusable imo. The teachers also hate it. It hasn't done anything to,change behaviour if those who don't care (for whatever reason) had done lots to damage the mental health of many young pupils there and the leaving rate of pupils in year 7 and 8 is very high.

It's not about being besties

But you can talk to them about the reasons why they aren't on task, what they are aiming for, self strategies for management of ADHD, what they got in their mocks etc.

All very teacher-esque subjects

To a dozen pupils in one lesson? When do you actually, ya know, teach the curriculum?

But tbh I'm always at a loss when I teacher is upset by being called an cunt.

It's not about you. It's about the fact you are trying to make them do something they don't want to do or can't do.

If I wanted to be a teacher I would.
I was asked to say how I would do it and I gave my answer.

I really doubt teaching is anymore stressful than social work - I think my job is the third highest in the ranks of most stress so yes teaching would be a step down for me!

Anyway, I'm off to lunch. Have a nice weekend and try to reflect on why zero tolerance might work for you but it doesn't work for the pupils.

Have a look at managed moves.

I did this with ds.

Best thing ever for him

if you are doing supply, you are in a different category. but even so, if you think you have a relationship with 1000 students a week, you are clearly very deluded!

yes, we can all attempt to build up relationships with as many students as possible, but sheer numbers make it completely impossible ,and wasting hours and hours on behaviour make it harder still

I would say even more ineffective than not having enough opportunity to build up relationships in your class would be fooling yourself that you have, when you have not.

I would suggest you have a perceived relationship with "a class" and have deceived yourself into thinking that you have a relationship with all the individuals in it, which you won't have, as a supply teacher, so the fact that you seem to think you do, would mean there is a huge amount happening that you are oblivious to.

A class is not a single entity

@Icedlatteplease same! If you're taking it personal then you're expecting validation and gratification from students.

However, if the school fosters a shit working environment and the management isn't supportive I can see why that's the tip of an iceburg.

Some of the best ways in are marking work and teaching them something they previously didn't get.

But it's not unusual for kids to stop behind in breaks and talk.

Either way it's better/more interesting than yelling at them to do as they're told.

A school near us recently got taken over by a new academy (they were an academy already) after a shocking ofsted triggered by parent (and, I heard, teacher) complaints. They’ve gone in hard on the behaviour. In the first week some ridiculous percentage of children were in detention. Some of the infringements were minor - forgetting equipment, uniform, etc. I wasn’t sure I agreed with that, but then one of the teachers explained the impact of half the class rummaging around for missing equipment for the first 5-10 mins of every lesson. They don’t forget their phones, she pointed out. Honestly, given some of the stuff that was going on in that school (knives….the ofsted report said the children didn’t feel safe at school), I think the approach they’ve taken is sensible. I would however hope that over time as they get things under control that more discretion can be taken, along the lines of the pp who said she’d turn a blind eye to someone borrowing a glue stick when theirs unexpectedly ran out.

You are of course right. I do not have a relationship with every child i meet.

I said I will try and talk. If I sow a thousand seeds and a few grow, I'm happy.

But to not even try and sow those seeds because "there are too many" and they are "feral", I find inexplicable.

I would be interested to know how many people commenting are actually teaching in huge state schools with a very mixed intake. It’s easy to criticise what seem to be fairly draconian steps such as denying toilet breaks without a pass if you don’t really know what’s going on in schools these days.

@AM130674 I could have written your post, same happened to my DD, most awful time, she’s through the other side, by moving to a slightly out of area school that fortunately had a space. I thought even though schools are oversubscribed you could appeal on bullying grounds/mental health. Be careful choosing one around the same area, social media means bullying can follow, hence our choice for out of area. My DDs bullies had already primed the bullies at the school they thought she would move to. We left an Academy that was very good at handing out consequences for minor behaviour but had absolutely no control on bullying, I never sent her back when the physical threats started happening, she was off for 5 weeks whilst getting a new place but this was when offices had staff off for Covid isolations. The school we left literally washed their hands off my DD when I refused to send her back, no work set, nothing. She’s doing well in her new school and on course for passing GCSE’s. I hope you and your DD have a lovely Easter break, being bullied is the most awful time for both child and parent, thinking of you both 💐

but of course everyone tries to "sow the seeds" of a relationship with as many students as possible, I am simply pointing out that it is not possible if the school behaviour policy is against you.

I have very rarely failed to establish a relationship with any child I have had an opportunity to speak to one to one - but when children are ranging through the schools and lessons in gangs, and you are trying to deal with 5-10 at once, it is simply not going to happen, especially when you add up how many of these packs you deal with in a single day

I’m a strict-ish teacher. I have brilliant relationships with the kids I teach. Because good relationships start with good boundaries. I don’t tolerate being called a cunt by anyone in my life, so I’m not going to tolerate it from a pupil. I wouldn’t want any child I care about to be in a school where that sort of behaviour is considered normal. But in return, the kids I teach know that I care about them and want to help them learn. Time in detention is spent usefully rather than just punitively (eg doing the homework they missed, or discussing the potential consequences of throwing a glue stick across a science lab).

Behaviour in many schools at the moment is shocking. Something needs to seriously change, because way too many kids want to learn and can’t, just because the behaviour of a few is ruining it for the rest. Of course more funding would massively help, and so would properly resourced external agencies. Teachers are often working over 60hrs on a normal week and many more when there is mock marking, report writing or parents’ evenings to do. They just don’t have the time (or expertise) to fix all of the underlying causes of a child misbehaving. It is naive in the extreme to think that teachers are able to do this, and it represents a serious misunderstanding of what schools are for.

The rules in most schools are sensible and well thought-out. Not every rule, obviously, but the majority. Children need to bring a pen because without it they can’t complete the lesson and so will learn less. Children need to listen when a teacher is talking so that they understand the task they’re about to do. Children need to complete their homework so the teacher can mark it, offer feedback and plan the next lessons to tackle misunderstandings or stretch their thinking. Children need to use the toilet at the designated times whenever possible so that they are in lessons and learning during class time.

Finally, “zero tolerance” is very rarely actually zero tolerance. Bennett’s philosophy is that some rules need to be in place to ensure learning can happen, and those rules need to be enforced by all staff. Exceptions should be made, but they should be exceptional. I find that very difficult to argue against tbh.

You actually did throw NT children under the bus in what you said. I directly quoted what you said which is effectively they don't matter they will probably be ok.

Well I hope they sort out the crisis in mental health provision and the autism/ADHD diagnosis process first.

Yes thought not- CAMHs isn’t fit for purpose and some areas are now closing diagnosis waiting lists until kids are in crisis or relationship with school has broken down.

So what is going to happen to those kids?

Yes that is the reality of life currently.

And yes on the whole the NT kids will probably be OK.

Not that they dont matter, but they will be OK.

But however bad you think it is for NT kids, it is actually still the SEN kids that are thrown under a bus

Effingmagic, thank you.

Can I ask how you dealt with the absence for those 5 weeks? Did you have the LA knocking at your door threatening with fines etc? I am worried about this.

My DD also mentioned some of the schools, she knows the circle of friends is wider and other local ish schools. Something I am conscious of avoiding.

So glad your DD has settled into new school.

Why would you not still talk to these kids? Either individually or to the whole pack

You'd be amazed how surprised some of these kids are that you talk to them.

Are you suggesting that the boys at Westminster are not well behaved?
I live nearby and see them every day living around and going to sports- I have never seen any poor behaviour

(unlike another local independent school)

I'm not a teacher but to me that sounds like you are teaching for 30 hrs a week? If you are teaching 1000 children that week it mean every hour you need to be talking and building a relationship with about 33 children. Is that right? I find it hard to believe you can have much interaction, I mean by the time they get settled and you find out their names how long would you have with each child in a class, one or two minutes and that would leave no time to teach anything.

My maths might be failing me so I'm happy for you to explain it for the hard of understanding.