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Original poster

Government Behaviour Hub pushing zero tolerance in schools

259 replies

Usedtodance · 01/04/2023 06:13

I've just been reading how the Behaviour Hub set up by the government has been pushing this idea of very strict behaviour policies and zero tolerance in schools. The sort rolled out by many of the academy chains. Does anyone know what the evidence base is for this?

The policies in many of these schools are highly restrictive - short lunch breaks, limited access to toilet breaks, consequences for minor mistakes. Many adults would find it stressful to be in an environment like this. I wonder if anyone has looked at the cost of these measures to the children in terms of their mental health, fostering independence and social skills etc.

Any insight, thoughts or links to research on this would be great.

OP posts:
nilsmousehammer · 01/04/2023 10:23

When I hear that warm, firm approaches work for all SEND kids I cringe. Because what that means basically is 'that kid presents me with no management problems' and that's it.

The school refusal numbers are rocketing and many are nice and academically able kids with SEND who mask at school, then go home and disintegrate. Over confident teachers and the insistence that every round peg will fit a square hole if you insist, and so long as the kid doesn't actively cause you a problem in your time with them who cares if they trash the house and try to hurt themselves all night in fear of coming back to school in the morning, is a big part of the problem. Inclusion (you can come here) isn't the same as access (we get your needs, can meet them, and this is a place where you are able to learn to your full capacity). And even outstanding teachers who do have a lot of SEND knowledge and work flat out to make their classroom accessible are then trying to manage hugely diverse groups and meltdowns because it's a situation that does not provide quality for anyone.

We really do need a lot more specialist schools and specialist staff.

Clutterbugsmum · 01/04/2023 10:31

I can only go by my experience.

My children go to an academy (One left, 1 yr10 & 1 yr9) and yes they are strict around expected behaviour. They don't let the 'little' things go because if you do then the 'little' things just get bigger as the children will keep pushing boundaries all the time.

My friends children go to another local school who did let the 'little' things go and now the school has now has a terrible reputation with bullying and children disrupting learning.

The only difference is my children's school has a strong committed leadership team and teachers who are committed to both teaching and helping the children get the best possible results for the child. Where as my friends children's school has a weak leadership and it shows with the teaching being given and the lack care shown towards the children.

OriGanOver · 01/04/2023 10:36

Can you really not apply any critical thinking to the way classrooms are managed and the zero tolerance approach?

Of course children and yp will rebel against draconian approaches. Coming down harder on petty shit doesn't work, if it did would. That doesn't equal no rules 🙄

Boudicasbeard · 01/04/2023 10:37

@OriGanOver

I’m all ears. What do you suggest?

Original poster
Usedtodance · 01/04/2023 10:42

@nilsmousehammer absolutely agree. My autistic Ds is super compliant at school - a teachers dream. They would be anyway because they will follow all rules anyway. But the warm/strict policies are causing huge anxiety and meltdowns at home.

But similarly there are friends with NT kids who previously had no trouble with school and are now struggling with school and anxiety over the rules, the pressure and the homework.

OP posts:
Milksheikha · 01/04/2023 10:47

I don't see the point of keeping unengaged students in school. The UK lacks drivers, tradespeople and low skill workers. Make compulsory trade apprenticeships or employment an option instead of academics.

OriGanOver · 01/04/2023 10:58

In an ideal world..

Young people actually being involved in the school, how it works for them, what they want from it. Participation at the highest level and not a tick box exercise.

What rules do they think their school needs? What behaviour plans do they think work? I would foster a sense of responsibility in the pupils of how they want their school to be ran. Young people would be consulted and listened too.

I'd get rid of uniform and have spare supplies in every room. Equipment shouldn't be in the way of learning and punishing dc for not having it is so alien to a work place that it doesn't make sense for schools to not provide it. It punishes those with chaotic homes and SEND.

I'd put all the teachers through a youth work degree to disemble the notion of strict and zero tolerance approach works best. Realise abuse of power that does happen and learn how building relationships work in managing behaviour.

I'd put more physical activity and learning through doing things. Sitting in a classroom if you're not a classroom person/learner is tough. The more bored dc are the more trouble they get into.

Natural consequences, you break something you work with the care taker to fix it.

Regulating behaviour, free breakfast club, free tea and toast at break. Longer breaks with more lunchtime clubs/football. We used to have an hour, now dc get 40 minutes, they need breaks.

We know that a child/adolescent brain is developing. There is a natural rebellious state that it goes through, there is a natural risk taking state again that it goes through. I'd stop forcing hours of boring classroom work by going back to longer breaks, outside classroom learning and PE. Taking away zero tolerance for uniform, kit, toilet breaks would remove a lot of conflict that escalates.

Also, I'd take away responsibility from the teachers and put it back on the yp. You can't force dc to do well. By the time they're 14 they know that if they don't pass their GCSEs life will be harder. I don't think it's healthy to have exam results as a way to measure schools - but I'd bet my house if I could run a school like that the natural result would be better attendance, less exclusions and good grades.

Nimbostratus100 · 01/04/2023 11:16

bluechameleon · 01/04/2023 10:05

I know two people who went to the first Mossbourne in its early days, which was one of the first of these types of school. High achieving, motivated people who went on to do well academically. Both say they were damaged by the culture and atmosphere - constant anxiety about getting something wrong and being punished, total lack of respect for the young people. They also say that the middle class kids who went into the school with all the advantages were the ones who survived; the ones from the chaotic homes, who already had disadvantages piled up at 11, often ended up excluded or managed out.
As a different example, I was on a course the other day with a woman who received a text message from her daughter's school notifying her of a demerit because her glue had run out.
In my opinion, it is fundamentally wrong to treat children/young people in this way. We need to show respect and compassion. In the philosophy of Ross Greene, kids do well if they can, and if they aren't doing well, we need to identify what skills they lack and teach them those skills. None of us would accept a situation at work where we have to be constantly behaving 'perfectly' (i.e. in the way some neuro-majority people have decided we should) and are publicly shamed if we don't. I don't find eye contact easy and concentrate better if I'm fiddling. I'm also occasionally a couple of minutes late, or forget to do something I've agreed to, or have a pen run out during a meeting, and I would quit my job immediately if I got penalised for these things.

what do you suggest the teacher does with a child without glue? The school cant afford glue, the child either doesn't do the work that requires the glue, or the teacher pays for it out of their own pocket.

It is perfectly reasonable for a school to expect a child to be equipped with glue

Stuckrecord · 01/04/2023 11:18

OriGanOver · 01/04/2023 10:58

In an ideal world..

Young people actually being involved in the school, how it works for them, what they want from it. Participation at the highest level and not a tick box exercise.

What rules do they think their school needs? What behaviour plans do they think work? I would foster a sense of responsibility in the pupils of how they want their school to be ran. Young people would be consulted and listened too.

I'd get rid of uniform and have spare supplies in every room. Equipment shouldn't be in the way of learning and punishing dc for not having it is so alien to a work place that it doesn't make sense for schools to not provide it. It punishes those with chaotic homes and SEND.

I'd put all the teachers through a youth work degree to disemble the notion of strict and zero tolerance approach works best. Realise abuse of power that does happen and learn how building relationships work in managing behaviour.

I'd put more physical activity and learning through doing things. Sitting in a classroom if you're not a classroom person/learner is tough. The more bored dc are the more trouble they get into.

Natural consequences, you break something you work with the care taker to fix it.

Regulating behaviour, free breakfast club, free tea and toast at break. Longer breaks with more lunchtime clubs/football. We used to have an hour, now dc get 40 minutes, they need breaks.

We know that a child/adolescent brain is developing. There is a natural rebellious state that it goes through, there is a natural risk taking state again that it goes through. I'd stop forcing hours of boring classroom work by going back to longer breaks, outside classroom learning and PE. Taking away zero tolerance for uniform, kit, toilet breaks would remove a lot of conflict that escalates.

Also, I'd take away responsibility from the teachers and put it back on the yp. You can't force dc to do well. By the time they're 14 they know that if they don't pass their GCSEs life will be harder. I don't think it's healthy to have exam results as a way to measure schools - but I'd bet my house if I could run a school like that the natural result would be better attendance, less exclusions and good grades.

Can you come and run my children’s school please?

Nimbostratus100 · 01/04/2023 11:20

Goldenbear · 01/04/2023 09:53

How do uniform infringements equate to disruption? Wearing a coat in a corridor for example is not going to lead you to be sacked in most workplaces. Meanwhile unkindness such as heckling your peers in the corridor or on lunch, excluding peers deliberately via mocking goes unchecked, that sort of behaviour in workplaces far more likely to get you sacked!

Show quote history

coats in corridors is often a simple matter of logistics - you can get more students down a corridor safer and faster if they are not wearing coats. School corridors are often massively overcrowded at lessons change over time.

plus the time wasted if children arrive at the classroom in their coat, and start faffing around taking them off then and there

Stuckrecord · 01/04/2023 11:21

Nimbostratus100 · 01/04/2023 11:16

what do you suggest the teacher does with a child without glue? The school cant afford glue, the child either doesn't do the work that requires the glue, or the teacher pays for it out of their own pocket.

It is perfectly reasonable for a school to expect a child to be equipped with glue

Show quote history

That’s the problem though in a nutshell. If school can’t afford spare glue, what hope do they have to recruit enough decent teachers? Education is undervalued and therefore underfunded in the Uk. I can’t believe teachers are just so accepting of a situation where they aren’t given proper tools to do their jobs - classroom supplies fgs!

Nimbostratus100 · 01/04/2023 11:24

Mammillaria · 01/04/2023 09:55

Regarding successful super-strict schools like the Michaela school, is there an element of selectiveness in the intake? I know the applications process itself is non-selective, but these very successful super-strict schools always seem to be in areas where parents have a choice of schools to apply to, presumably meaning that only parents who have high aspirations for their children and children who are likely to do well in that environment apply. Do schools like this work in small towns and rural areas where there is no alternative school?

Another thought about the Michaela school (not sure if this applies to other successful super-strict schools); it is known for being super-strict but this is only one aspect to its approach. It also has a huge emphasis on gratitude and student/teacher relations which are reinforced daily in things like 'family lunch'.

I am not convinced that simply implementing a zero tolerance policy in a struggling school will in itself make a huge impact. Although I do agree that something needs to change.

I hate family lunch - who forces a regulated topic of conversation onto teenagers in their lunch time? and monitors and sanctions anyone going off topic. I count that as way over the top

Nimbostratus100 · 01/04/2023 11:25

Stuckrecord · 01/04/2023 11:21

That’s the problem though in a nutshell. If school can’t afford spare glue, what hope do they have to recruit enough decent teachers? Education is undervalued and therefore underfunded in the Uk. I can’t believe teachers are just so accepting of a situation where they aren’t given proper tools to do their jobs - classroom supplies fgs!

Show quote history

yes, most of the problems being discussed here to do with SEND are actually funding problems, The reason SEND children dont get the support and resources they need is to do with funding - they should get them, even in a strict school- but there are none

Stuckrecord · 01/04/2023 11:30

Absolutely. And then parents feel no other option to seek a EHCP because that’s the only legal way to force the support being put in place that should be there already.

Nimbostratus100 · 01/04/2023 11:33

OriGanOver · 01/04/2023 10:58

In an ideal world..

Young people actually being involved in the school, how it works for them, what they want from it. Participation at the highest level and not a tick box exercise.

What rules do they think their school needs? What behaviour plans do they think work? I would foster a sense of responsibility in the pupils of how they want their school to be ran. Young people would be consulted and listened too.

I'd get rid of uniform and have spare supplies in every room. Equipment shouldn't be in the way of learning and punishing dc for not having it is so alien to a work place that it doesn't make sense for schools to not provide it. It punishes those with chaotic homes and SEND.

I'd put all the teachers through a youth work degree to disemble the notion of strict and zero tolerance approach works best. Realise abuse of power that does happen and learn how building relationships work in managing behaviour.

I'd put more physical activity and learning through doing things. Sitting in a classroom if you're not a classroom person/learner is tough. The more bored dc are the more trouble they get into.

Natural consequences, you break something you work with the care taker to fix it.

Regulating behaviour, free breakfast club, free tea and toast at break. Longer breaks with more lunchtime clubs/football. We used to have an hour, now dc get 40 minutes, they need breaks.

We know that a child/adolescent brain is developing. There is a natural rebellious state that it goes through, there is a natural risk taking state again that it goes through. I'd stop forcing hours of boring classroom work by going back to longer breaks, outside classroom learning and PE. Taking away zero tolerance for uniform, kit, toilet breaks would remove a lot of conflict that escalates.

Also, I'd take away responsibility from the teachers and put it back on the yp. You can't force dc to do well. By the time they're 14 they know that if they don't pass their GCSEs life will be harder. I don't think it's healthy to have exam results as a way to measure schools - but I'd bet my house if I could run a school like that the natural result would be better attendance, less exclusions and good grades.

sorry, but this is ignorant in the extreme - you are dealing all day with children who have been brought up to defy authority and kick back against instructions - there is no opportunity for engaging these students in the way you describe.

These students can destroy the chance of education for everyone

You cant change the students in front of you, you have to educate them as they are.

There is no such thing as a "youth work degree" which is relevant for schools, or teaches anything other than the current fad, which will be out of date within two years

spare supplies in every room will need fully replacing every week

There is already masses of movement breaks, learning away from the classroom and learning through different modes

Your idea of "working to fix what is broken" completely ignores the fact that the teacher will firstly have to invest hours in finding out who broke it, getting into conflict with students and parents while doing it, and then the parents will likely kick off about the "natural consequences"

sorry, but you know and understand nothing whatsoever

Your house is forfeit

Stuckrecord · 01/04/2023 11:35

You don’t seem to like children very much @Nimbostratus100

pickledandpuzzled · 01/04/2023 11:39

I'd be interested to see what happens, if you can get a zero tolerance expectation established then school becomes safer for most kids and harder for a few. If you have a supportive set up to work with the few then I can't see why it wouldn't work.

At the moment we expect children to survive in massive unruly schools where their peers pick on them and there is little supervision to prevent it.

Few adults would work in settings where peers can verbally abuse you, sexually assault you, and mess about on the job with few consequences.

TooBored1 · 01/04/2023 11:40

Borrow from a classmate for the day?

Nimbostratus100 · 01/04/2023 11:41

pickledandpuzzled · 01/04/2023 11:39

I'd be interested to see what happens, if you can get a zero tolerance expectation established then school becomes safer for most kids and harder for a few. If you have a supportive set up to work with the few then I can't see why it wouldn't work.

At the moment we expect children to survive in massive unruly schools where their peers pick on them and there is little supervision to prevent it.

Few adults would work in settings where peers can verbally abuse you, sexually assault you, and mess about on the job with few consequences.

exactly - once a strict behavioural policy is in place and working, then relationships between students and staff can really blossom -

but again, it is all about balance- there is a line which can be crossed making teachers appear too strict, and unapproachable

I have seen schools that are too lenient, schools that are too strict, and schools that get the balance right

Nimbostratus100 · 01/04/2023 11:42

TooBored1 · 01/04/2023 11:40

Borrow from a classmate for the day?

tbh, when someone does this, I would just pretend not to notice- as there is actual problem has been resolved

Nowhereelsetogo90 · 01/04/2023 11:57

This sounds harsh and there’s probably a middle ground but as a teacher in a state school, something needs to be done. The behaviour is growing steadily worse, there are no consequences that teaching staff are really allowed to put in place, the support from the parents is minimal. The expectation of mainstreaming for all is crushing schools and other children are missing out as a result. There are days I feel more like a referee than an educator. And I know this isn’t just my school or my council - I follow a couple of UK wide teacher pages on FB and see situations much worse than mine every day. Violence in schools is ridiculously high, people are assaulted at work daily, as are other children. I don’t know what the answer is 😢

Icedlatteplease · 01/04/2023 11:59

Hdhabvdhhebsb · 01/04/2023 09:40

@Icedlatteplease I can't believe that you think it is ok to throw well behaved, keen to learn children under the bus 'whatever the detriment of the NT kids who will probably do sufficiently adequately regardless.' why should they be dragged down and create an ever increasing gap between state and private for the many children who can't afford to go private and will pay for it by not achieving the best they can at school which could then have lifelong consequences for them. Why should they have to opt for a lesser job/lesser pay/lesser lifestyle because of their school throwing their education under a bus as they 'will do adequately'.

Show quote history

I never said it was OK. I just stated reality.

And it really isn't NT kids that suffer most from the arrangement

If I could organise and fully fund education my way, education would look nothing like it does now

Boudicasbeard · 01/04/2023 12:02

@OriGanOver

That is a lovely ideal. You should try setting up and free school and implementing it.

I can’t take anything you say seriously because you are starting from the position that teacher don’t generally have the well being of their students first in mind. And that we are less well informed about teen development than they average youth worker.

You obviously have no idea what goes on in schools. It’s insulting.

OriGanOver · 01/04/2023 12:11

Youth work is not a new fad. It's been around since the victorian times. It worked then and can work now.

Nim - you don't sound like a good teacher anymore. You sound bitter and fustrated. Your approach isn't working. Time for a new job that you're able to enjoy. One where your empathy levels can start to regrow. I'd absolutely hate it if you were one of my dcs teachers, I really hope you're not.

My argument is not null, it would work very well. It's not based on theoretical concepts but actual hard evidence and theories that have proven themselves when working with yp.

Macaroni46 · 01/04/2023 12:11

@OriGanOver
You say "I could not imagine not being able to go to the loo when I needed to. Yes I might hold to the end of a meeting but if I needed to go I could give everyone a 5 minute break, it would be my decision. Not having autonomy over my bodily functions would be awful."

Try being a nurse or a teacher. They can go hours without getting a chance to go to the loo. Probably lots of other jobs too.