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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that a three year jail sentence is unreasonable for the disabled pedestrian who was found guilty of causing the death of a cyclist

646 replies

DotAndCarryOne2 · 26/03/2023 20:30

The Sunday Times and The Guardian carried this story earlier this month and again today, as did GB News. Link is below. I just find it unbelievable that so much relevant information about this lady’s disability was either ignored or dismissed by the judge, and that she didn’t have adequate representation at sentencing.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjj6omaqvr9AhWJbcAKHVv9DMkQFnoECAkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fhome-news%2Fcyclist-manslaughter-auriol-grey-cambridgeshire-b2294507.html&usg=AOvVaw1yOHhh6F4zfEel6m4EMYpL

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjj6omaqvr9AhWJbcAKHVv9DMkQFnoECAkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fhome-news%2Fcyclist-manslaughter-auriol-grey-cambridgeshire-b2294507.html&usg=AOvVaw1yOHhh6F4zfEel6m4EMYpL

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
QuintanaRoo · 27/03/2023 00:14

DotAndCarryOne2 · 26/03/2023 23:46

What ???? How would it be her fault she’s mentally impaired ? And no one is saying she’s mentally ill. That’s completely different. She has a brain injury as a result of being starved of oxygen at birth and subsequent surgeries. This has resulted in cognitive impairment, cerebral palsy and mobility problems. None of these conditions require sectioning under the mental health act , or, as you so charmingly put it, ‘rehabilitation, and FYI, neither does mental illness unless it escalates to the point where the person is a danger to themselves or others. Sectioning is a form of safeguarding, not punishment, as you seem to be suggesting.

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Well she’s blatantly a danger to others if she can’t control herself to this extent.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:14

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:12

Yes it's actually the job to risk assess and trigger safeguarding! If this lady with cognitive impairment who was known to services she lived at the Papworth trust (so would be known to SS) She was verbally abusing members of the public and was talked to by the police. Why the hell wasn't this flagged to the other agencies. You can put safeguards in place to protect the public increased staffing provision , change of accomodation and therapeutic interventions. All these things prevent harm to the person and the public

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What are agencies supposed to do - lock her up forever because she gets a bit gobby now and again? Is that a world you want to live in?

Agencies did not fail anyone. They often do, but not this time.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:14

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:12

I work in one...

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Does it have capacity for endless criminals who don’t show remorse?

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:16

Saschka · 27/03/2023 00:13

Then you know what a high bar there is to getting a long term care order for a patient, and “has cognitive impairment and sometimes shouts at people” would not clear that bar…

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Yes exactly.

It seems some posters want a world where anyone who isn’t perfectly behaved all the time is to be locked up in a facility just in case the lush a cyclist under the wheels of a car. Pathetic.

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:16

Saschka · 27/03/2023 00:13

Then you know what a high bar there is to getting a long term care order for a patient, and “has cognitive impairment and sometimes shouts at people” would not clear that bar…

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It depends she obviously won't be in general population in prison she wouldn't cope. She obviously will need therapeutic intervention the interview in my opinion showed executive dysfunction.

Original poster
DotAndCarryOne2 · 27/03/2023 00:16

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 26/03/2023 23:58

How has she been failed by multiple agencies? I need specifics I’m afraid because to me it’s not obvious. Unless you’re suggesting she should have been locked away just in case she killed a cyclist and agencies should have foreseen this?

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She was know to police in the area as she was abusive to people and had been spoken to by police previously. She was clearly a vulnerable person - evidence for this is irrefutable as she was living in a residential disabled facility provided by a disability charity. They were the first agency to fail her by deeming her capable of living alone, and moving her out of supervised residential care into an adapted flat, despite objections from her family. The police had to have known she was vulnerable and should have made sure that she had appropriate support from Social Services and possibly NHS mental health services after her behaviour was brought to their attention. There should have been risk assessment and proper safeguarding in place for a vulnerable person, instead of which, a woman is dead and she’s ended up in jail, which is IMO totally inappropriate for someone with her history. Turning off notifications to the thread now, because some of the opinions and attitudes towards mental health and disability are frankly disturbing, and the atmosphere combative from the start.

OP posts:
TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:17

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:16

It depends she obviously won't be in general population in prison she wouldn't cope. She obviously will need therapeutic intervention the interview in my opinion showed executive dysfunction.

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We aren’t talking about what prison she will end up in, this is about people blaming agency involvement like they could have foreseen what would happen.

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:17

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:14

What are agencies supposed to do - lock her up forever because she gets a bit gobby now and again? Is that a world you want to live in?

Agencies did not fail anyone. They often do, but not this time.

Show quote history

No we don't lock people up forever and it wasn't being gobby she caused a lady to lose her life with her actions.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:21

She was know to police in the area as she was abusive to people and had been spoken to by police previously.

So? How has she been failed because police don’t have a crystal ball?

She was clearly a vulnerable person - evidence for this is irrefutable as she was living in a residential disabled facility provided by a disability charity. They were the first agency to fail her by deeming her capable of living alone, and moving her out of supervised residential care into an adapted flat, despite objections from her family

Where is the evidence her (estranged) family objected? And where is the evidence she wasn’t fit to live alone?

The police had to have known she was vulnerable and should have made sure that she had appropriate support from Social Services and possibly NHS mental health services after her behaviour was brought to their attention.

How do you know they didn’t do this? Social work so separate to police work and this would never be mentioned in a trial.

There should have been risk assessment and proper safeguarding in place for a vulnerable person, instead of which, a woman is dead and she’s ended up in jail, which is IMO totally inappropriate for someone with her history.

They did risk assess. They decided jail was appropriate. Have you seen her health record?

Turning off notifications to the thread now, because some of the opinions and attitudes towards mental health and disability are frankly disturbing, and the atmosphere combative from the start.

”It’s not going my way so I’m off in a sulk”

The above does not for a nansecond prove how ANY agency failed her.

The police often can and do fail vulnerable women. They haven’t failed this one. I actually commend them for doing something about it and getting justice for the poor victims here - Celia Ward and the driver.

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:21

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:17

We aren’t talking about what prison she will end up in, this is about people blaming agency involvement like they could have foreseen what would happen.

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Well yes it's our fucking jobs!! Risk assessments is a core part of that. If someone does antisocial conduct do I say oh yes that's perfectly fine go about your business. No you follow it up because safeguarding is a vital element. She was known to services already and they failed. Now someone's dead and she's in prison.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:23

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:17

No we don't lock people up forever and it wasn't being gobby she caused a lady to lose her life with her actions.

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Are you sure you work is a job with people? You have no comprehension skills.

Thats exactly what I’m saying - if we don’t in fact lock up anyone with any semblance of a cognitive issue, what is the solution? How can we foresee every unfortunate action of these people? What could have been done that didn’t lead to Grey killing this woman?

Celia (she has a name BTW not just ‘lady’) lost her life because she was pushed by this gobby woman. If Grey hadn’t been there she wouldn’t have died that way that day.

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:24

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:21

She was know to police in the area as she was abusive to people and had been spoken to by police previously.

So? How has she been failed because police don’t have a crystal ball?

She was clearly a vulnerable person - evidence for this is irrefutable as she was living in a residential disabled facility provided by a disability charity. They were the first agency to fail her by deeming her capable of living alone, and moving her out of supervised residential care into an adapted flat, despite objections from her family

Where is the evidence her (estranged) family objected? And where is the evidence she wasn’t fit to live alone?

The police had to have known she was vulnerable and should have made sure that she had appropriate support from Social Services and possibly NHS mental health services after her behaviour was brought to their attention.

How do you know they didn’t do this? Social work so separate to police work and this would never be mentioned in a trial.

There should have been risk assessment and proper safeguarding in place for a vulnerable person, instead of which, a woman is dead and she’s ended up in jail, which is IMO totally inappropriate for someone with her history.

They did risk assess. They decided jail was appropriate. Have you seen her health record?

Turning off notifications to the thread now, because some of the opinions and attitudes towards mental health and disability are frankly disturbing, and the atmosphere combative from the start.

”It’s not going my way so I’m off in a sulk”

The above does not for a nansecond prove how ANY agency failed her.

The police often can and do fail vulnerable women. They haven’t failed this one. I actually commend them for doing something about it and getting justice for the poor victims here - Celia Ward and the driver.

You obviously have no idea how vital multi agency working is for safeguarding. The police should have flagged she was a vulnerable person and made inquiries at first point of contact when she was harassing members of the public. She was known to SS and Papworth trust , she was in the system so to speak. The police and other agencies should communicate.

Saschka · 27/03/2023 00:24

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:17

No we don't lock people up forever and it wasn't being gobby she caused a lady to lose her life with her actions.

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As above, I think we are arguing at cross-purposes. OP seems to feel that AG has been “failed by multiple agencies” and should have been locked away for life pre-emptively on the basis of the combination of cerebral palsy and previous aggressive shouting in public.

Several others of us are arguing that that would not have met the (rightly) high bar for a long term care order.

Obviously none of us have examined her, so I have no idea whether she would now meet the bar for this, but the fact she was deemed fit to stand trial and both the prosecution and defence psychiatric reports deemed her not to have significant cognitive impairment, would suggest she still doesn’t meet that bar.

Whichnumbers · 27/03/2023 00:25

The defence are also questioning why he decided that it was a shared pathway when neither the police or the county council could provide evidence to support that, and the council went as far as confirming that there was no historical or legal evidence to support that it ever was ?

due to there being some signage to indicate shared path started but there wasn’t any signage to indicate shared path had finished.
this is often the case with council letting markings become unreadable on tarmac and where shared paths stop, no signage to indicate this. This means a cyclist may start riding on a shared path and the shared path ends, but the cyclist can’t have knowledge of this as it’s not clear with any signs.

there was a reporter filmed at the spot when a cyclist passed, it clearly showed there was enough room for a reporter to be stood fully squared on the pavement and fir the cyclist to pass, no drama just sharing the space

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:25

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:21

Well yes it's our fucking jobs!! Risk assessments is a core part of that. If someone does antisocial conduct do I say oh yes that's perfectly fine go about your business. No you follow it up because safeguarding is a vital element. She was known to services already and they failed. Now someone's dead and she's in prison.

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Please explain slowly how any services could have foreseen a woman who was nothing more than a bit of a gobshite and who had some cognitive issues, killing a woman? Are you psychic? Tell me what YOU would have done to ensure that if she was your patient she would not have done that. What should services have done that definitely wouldn’t lead to Grey going out on that particular day, shouting at someone and pushing them into the path of a vehicle?

And as a PP said when the bar is so very high, why would she even come on your radar in the first place?

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:26

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:24

You obviously have no idea how vital multi agency working is for safeguarding. The police should have flagged she was a vulnerable person and made inquiries at first point of contact when she was harassing members of the public. She was known to SS and Papworth trust , she was in the system so to speak. The police and other agencies should communicate.

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How do you know they didn’t?

And if they did - what should have been the multi agency approach? Short of locking her away, how could this incident have been prevented?

Spectre8 · 27/03/2023 00:27

She got off lightly. There is far too much vitriol towards cyclists.

I am a pedestrian, a driver and a cyclist like the majority of cyclists we are all 3.
Yet the amount of hatred some ppl display towards cyclists is scary.

It doesn't matter if you cycle, drive or walk...in each group there are people who break the highway code, drivers who go through red lights or speed, cyclists who go through red lights, pedestrians who step or run across the road without looking or too busy on their phones to check before stepping out.

As for the judge and just, they saw information we aren't privy to.

freyamay74 · 27/03/2023 00:28

@TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl completely agree .

There's no evidence that AG has been failed by any agency.

Saschka · 27/03/2023 00:28

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:24

You obviously have no idea how vital multi agency working is for safeguarding. The police should have flagged she was a vulnerable person and made inquiries at first point of contact when she was harassing members of the public. She was known to SS and Papworth trust , she was in the system so to speak. The police and other agencies should communicate.

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Unless you have access to all of her health records, you have no idea whether this happened or not.

If she is simply a nasty woman, of which there are unfortunately many in the world, the outcome of multiagency working would look very similar to this - no action possible until she offends.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:28

And if we do start to live in a world where a woman with ‘some’ cognitive impairments gets a long term car order for shouting at teenagers now and again, I will promptly fly to Mars because I don’t want to live in a world where disabled people’s liberties are stolen based on imperfect behaviour.

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:32

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:23

Are you sure you work is a job with people? You have no comprehension skills.

Thats exactly what I’m saying - if we don’t in fact lock up anyone with any semblance of a cognitive issue, what is the solution? How can we foresee every unfortunate action of these people? What could have been done that didn’t lead to Grey killing this woman?

Celia (she has a name BTW not just ‘lady’) lost her life because she was pushed by this gobby woman. If Grey hadn’t been there she wouldn’t have died that way that day.

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We have risk assessment tools we use them every day in practice, she should have had more staff support because of her risks. Auriol Grey was known to services , she had cognitive impairment and had history of being verbally aggressive to members of the public . No you don't have to lock everybody up with cognitive impairment that's what risk management is for.

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:34

Saschka · 27/03/2023 00:28

Unless you have access to all of her health records, you have no idea whether this happened or not.

If she is simply a nasty woman, of which there are unfortunately many in the world, the outcome of multiagency working would look very similar to this - no action possible until she offends.

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Being verbally aggressive is a crime !! She has a cognitive impairment so has executive dysfunction. It is nowhere the same as a few teenagers being gobby!! Look up and research the links between brain damage and antisocial behaviour.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:35

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:32

We have risk assessment tools we use them every day in practice, she should have had more staff support because of her risks. Auriol Grey was known to services , she had cognitive impairment and had history of being verbally aggressive to members of the public . No you don't have to lock everybody up with cognitive impairment that's what risk management is for.

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How do you know she wasn’t risk assessed and receiving support as a result? You only know she wasn’t risk assessed for a long term care order or for a 24/7 cater and unable to go out alone.

Chances are she WAS risk assessed and was referred to GP/MH services/put on some sort of course/ had a social worker visit monthly.

U less you are her social worker you have no idea and it’s REALLY odd that you think you know she definitely hasn’t been assessed.

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:36

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:34

Being verbally aggressive is a crime !! She has a cognitive impairment so has executive dysfunction. It is nowhere the same as a few teenagers being gobby!! Look up and research the links between brain damage and antisocial behaviour.

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With that in mind and bearing in mind social workers probably DID risk assess her if she was known to police - how was she failed? What should have happened? Who failed her and how?

Fifi1010 · 27/03/2023 00:38

TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl · 27/03/2023 00:28

And if we do start to live in a world where a woman with ‘some’ cognitive impairments gets a long term car order for shouting at teenagers now and again, I will promptly fly to Mars because I don’t want to live in a world where disabled people’s liberties are stolen based on imperfect behaviour.

You don't have to lock people up, that's a last resort ! The key is she needed therapeutic interventions before crisis point such as adaptive cognitive behavioural therapy and positive behaviour support planning.

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