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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is he being unreasonable? "Women's rights were won at the expense of men"

174 replies

Rainbowshit · 25/03/2023 21:08

twitter.com/billybragg/status/1462076809542094854?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdy

So says Billy Bragg. Is he being unreasonable? 🤬

OP posts:
Ofcourseshecan · 26/03/2023 18:04

Ofcourseshecan · 26/03/2023 18:02

Please provide references to cases in which men were imprisoned for having sexual intercourse with their wives against the women’s wishes, ie for rape rather than for physical violence.

In 1984, a report by the UK Criminal Law Revision Committee rejected a call for the offence of rape should be extended to protect women from their husbands:

"The majority of us ... believe that rape cannot be considered in the abstract as merely 'sexual intercourse without consent'. The circumstances of rape may be peculiarly grave. This feature is not present in the case of a husband and wife cohabiting with each other when an act of sexual intercourse occurs without the wife's consent. They may well have had sexual intercourse regularly before the act in question and, because a sexual relationship may involve a degree of compromise, she may sometimes have agreed only with some reluctance to such intercourse. Should he go further and force her to have sexual intercourse without her consent, this may evidence a failure of the marital relationship. But it is far from being the 'unique' and 'grave' offence described earlier. Where the husband goes so far as to cause injury, there are available a number of offences against the person with which he may be charged, but the gravamen of the husband's conduct is the injury he has caused not the sexual intercourse he has forced."

This ‘marital exemption’ to the law against rape was not removed until 1991.

rejected a call for the offence of rape to be extended

MandyMotherOfBrian · 26/03/2023 18:08

I can't recall a single instance where a man has been convicted of rape by a UK court and not served time behind bars. At least not within the lifetimes of anyone posting on this thread

Goodness me, if you ‘can’t recall’ it does that mean it didn’t happen? Because even the most cursory of Googles would have given the information that, in 2020 alone (I’m quite confident that’s in the lifetime of everyone posting here, unless there has been a sudden influx of child prodigies on the AIBU board) eighteen men got away with raping women and girls (one victim was a male child) and received no jail time whatsoever. Their punishment ranged from suspended sentences through community service orders to an actual absolute discharge despite being convicted.
Clearly all of your ramblings can be safely ignored, if anyone was in any doubt.

midgemadgemodge · 26/03/2023 18:18

Not many acts as though every transperson is a danger more than others of the relevant sex

But yes we will go a bit annoyed if the restrictions placed around most men are deemed irrelevant to any males who identify as transgender

Because it's expecting a different treatment, a privileged treatment

And yes anyone who choses to violate a female space is in that very act committing an act of disrespect and threatening behaviour

I note that not all transwomen actually do that.

midgemadgemodge · 26/03/2023 18:22

Men lost the right to be automatically placed above women

So if there were 10 spaces for men with certain skills there are now ( legally if not practically) 5 for men as on average 5 women will be better than the others

The men are competing in a bigger pool so the weak ones feel aggrieved that they lost out ,...because they weren't good enough to compete against the women

Which shows you what Billy Bragg is - a weak man who feels threatened because he can see so many women who are better than he is - even in the mysogenistic music industry!

monsteramunch · 26/03/2023 18:40

@Mark19735

Those who are accused of rape, but never prosecuted or aquitted, aren't rapists. That's the law. May not suit everyone's agenda, but having regard to evidence, data, and the rule of law are important foundations of a fair society

To be clear Mark, if a loved one of yours was raped by a man who was never prosecuted due to lack of evidence, for example, would you tell that loved one she shouldn't refer to that man as a rapist?

MandyMotherOfBrian · 26/03/2023 18:58

And further, for poor hard of thinking Mark, there are 406 men walked away without a custodial sentence, after being convicted of the rape of women and children, in the 10 years between 2011-21 in the UK.

itsgettingweird · 26/03/2023 19:08

Eastofe · 25/03/2023 21:30

Its that whole 'equality feels like opression when you are used to privilege' mindset.
Men didn't lose anything but an advantage they should never have had in the first place

Perfectly put

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 26/03/2023 20:00

A man who commits a rape is a rapist.

If he has not been tried and found guilty he is not a convicted rapist - but he is still a rapist in fact, if not (yet) in law. Just as somebody who commits a murder is a murderer, and someone who steals something is a thief.

JudgeRudy · 26/03/2023 20:23

"Women’s rights were won at the expense of men. That’s not a criticism of process, simply an illustration of what must happen for an excluded group to win their human rights. Don’t you think men said ‘what about our right to single sex spaces?"

I think what he's saying here is NOT misogynistic, as he says it's an illustration not a judgement. He's comparing and contrasting similar times of social change.

Sounds to me he's saying men weren't particularly happy to eg have their golf clubs 'infultrated' by women. Many wanted to be allowed to keep their gentleman's club....but the law said no. Now it seems ridiculous that you would need a man to 'sign you in' to a WMC or GolfClub. The vibe at these places has changed and some people hanker for the old ways. They are labelled misogynistic when actually they're not against women at all, they just want their exclusive spaces coz it 'spoils it' forsome.and feel men and women are equal but very different.

Now we have Trans Rights. Progressives say transwomen should be able to use (biological) women's spaces. Then we have conservatives who say No Way. I want this space to stay as it is. These are labelled transphobic Terfs. They say they have nothing against transwomen but just like the men before them they feel women and trans women are equal but very different and should not have identical rights.

I have heard some very nice older people say in the past 'l'm not racist but....they're not like us....yes, give them equal rights....but separately, away from me and my white comminity'

Listen to this and tell me this man is not on our side

Listen to this too

Billy Bragg - Valentine's Day is Over

https://youtu.be/hJaJfctRUPE

RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 26/03/2023 20:26

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 26/03/2023 20:00

A man who commits a rape is a rapist.

If he has not been tried and found guilty he is not a convicted rapist - but he is still a rapist in fact, if not (yet) in law. Just as somebody who commits a murder is a murderer, and someone who steals something is a thief.

Yep

Happylittlechicken · 26/03/2023 20:47

They say they have nothing against transwomen but just like the men before them they feel women and trans women are equal but very different and should not have identical rights.

@JudgeRudy so they are right. What do women and transwomen have in common apart from both being human? A woman has as much in common with a male with a trans identity as one without a trans identity. What rights did men lose by women gaining rights? Most feminists believe transwomen should have exactly the same rights as any other male. Why wouldn’t they?

FlyingWormsAndSubterraneanBirds · 26/03/2023 20:49

All of them, I believe.

I can't recall a single instance where a man has been convicted of rape by a UK court and not served time behind bars. At least not within the lifetimes of anyone posting on this thread.

What a bullshit response. You are well aware that it was consider a marital right and happening in a widespread way for most if modern history. That even now it is almost impossible to prove when it happens. And that even for rapes from people who are NOT a spouse the conviction rate is under 2% of those reported, and that the vast majority aren't reported at all, because people know this.

Your absurd comment seems to attempt to imply that only those convicted of rape have committed a rape. If you genuinely believe this you are unbelievably stupid and are not worth talking to so please do not reply to me. If you have even slightly below average intelligence then you are well aware that this isn't the case and that most rapists get away with their behaviour with no consequences whatsoever, especially in relationships where it is far harder to prove, and you are a disgusting human being for deliberately trying to pretend that because women can't prove it, it didn't happen. I didn't ask how many men convicted of raping their spouse had been sent to prison. I asked how many of those who had raped their spouse were sent to prison. We all know the two figures are wildly different. So just fuck off. I do not wish to speak to a rape apologist, who implies that somehow the conviction rate represents the actual rate of occurrence. We all know different. We see you. Go away.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 26/03/2023 21:05

Mark19735 · 26/03/2023 17:55

@Ofcourseshecan - I do hope you aren't one of these posters who is so angry before they even start typing that they assume the post to which they are replying is hostile? That would be a shame, because I agree with almost everything you say.

Or maybe you share the characteristics of some others on here, who cannot look past the first four characters of my username without descending into a red-mist of man-hating rage that means they assume everything I post must be wrong. That too would be a shame, because I rather hope that you might agree with many of the things I've posted. There's some later posts I made, after the one you quoted, in which I make some similar points.

But to re-emphasise what I actually posted, here's your analysis with areas of mis/understanding corrected (on my part).

  1. It is men who are invading women’s single-sex spaces. Not quite - it is some men, claiming to believe they are women, who are doing this. Those men are reviled by other men almost as much as they are by GC feminists. But if they have the right to enter, all men will have that right. That is indeed the risk, and why I agree with you - and also why I think that Billy Bragg is wrong to have framed the argument in the way he has. But the posters on pages 1 and 2 of this thread were misconstruing what his tweet actually said, and what it said wasn't technically wrong. Hating someone for their values or motives doesn't mean every point they make must be wrong.
  2. Men lost the massive privilege of being the only humans who could vote. If you call that a right rather than a privilege, you would have to consider keeping slaves to be a right. I do indeed consider that the laws in force at the time of slavery were such that it gave slave owners legally enforceable rights. In fact, when slavery was abolished, slave owners were compensated for their 'losses'. Recognising that something is a right is not the same as saying it ought to be a right. The difference is nuanced ... something MN posters struggle with sometimes.
  3. I agree the current changes have a cost. But you’re not making the point you think you’re making. This is exactly the point I was making, thank you. What's the opposite of mansplaining?
  4. Women are not claiming that sex doesn’t matter ... THAT is why we need single-sex spaces. No decent man disagrees. I don't disagree either. My whole argument was that sex has always mattered. It's just taken the TRAs to reveal why to a generation of feminist men and women who have long argued that it didn't.

"I do hope you aren't one of these posters who is so angry before they even start typing that they assume the post to which they are replying is hostile? That would be a shame, because I agree with almost everything you say."

As I read those words I can hear Prodigy's Fire Starter playing in my head. Gas.Light.Much...

JudgeRudy · 26/03/2023 21:17

Happylittlechicken · 26/03/2023 20:47

They say they have nothing against transwomen but just like the men before them they feel women and trans women are equal but very different and should not have identical rights.

@JudgeRudy so they are right. What do women and transwomen have in common apart from both being human? A woman has as much in common with a male with a trans identity as one without a trans identity. What rights did men lose by women gaining rights? Most feminists believe transwomen should have exactly the same rights as any other male. Why wouldn’t they?

@Happylittlechicken - Well I've just given an example of a right they lost...a right to a single sex gentlemen's club. You may not consider it a right or important but a considerable number of men did (do)....but we went with the majority and ones we got used to it we 'settled'.
I really don't want to bring my own beliefs and feelings into this as they probably don't align with any mainstream views...I was just commenting that BB seems to comparing two situations that have a lot in common. K believe he's saying change will inevitably upset some.
I don't believe BB hate women was my point. In the same way you (hopefully) don't hate transwomen

VestaTilley · 26/03/2023 21:20

He’s a misogynistic knob, and it turns out he’s really ignorant. Who knew.

JudgeRudy · 26/03/2023 21:26

Albiboba · 25/03/2023 21:15

I think they know.

This disturbs me. I'm generally a red pill person but this would be too much for me to believe. I so hope you're wrong

BenCoopersSupportWren · 26/03/2023 21:28

JudgeRudy · 26/03/2023 21:17

@Happylittlechicken - Well I've just given an example of a right they lost...a right to a single sex gentlemen's club. You may not consider it a right or important but a considerable number of men did (do)....but we went with the majority and ones we got used to it we 'settled'.
I really don't want to bring my own beliefs and feelings into this as they probably don't align with any mainstream views...I was just commenting that BB seems to comparing two situations that have a lot in common. K believe he's saying change will inevitably upset some.
I don't believe BB hate women was my point. In the same way you (hopefully) don't hate transwomen

The male-only members of Brooks, Whites and the Turf Club all say hi.

FlyingWormsAndSubterraneanBirds · 26/03/2023 21:38

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 26/03/2023 20:00

A man who commits a rape is a rapist.

If he has not been tried and found guilty he is not a convicted rapist - but he is still a rapist in fact, if not (yet) in law. Just as somebody who commits a murder is a murderer, and someone who steals something is a thief.

Absolutely. @Mark19735 has got form for this type of disgusting misogyny on other posts. It's vile. Some people are beyond help.

CantAskAnyoneElse · 26/03/2023 21:45

Divorcedalongtime · 25/03/2023 21:18

So sad but so true. Specially all those women who say “equality has gone too far”

I don’t disagree with the quote, but I hope that all the women who know and agree with this quote don’t have boyfriends, husbands, sons, male besties the trust.
Because that would be dumb.

CantAskAnyoneElse · 26/03/2023 21:46

*they trust

Divorcedalongtime · 26/03/2023 21:49

CantAskAnyoneElse · 26/03/2023 21:45

I don’t disagree with the quote, but I hope that all the women who know and agree with this quote don’t have boyfriends, husbands, sons, male besties the trust.
Because that would be dumb.

Agree !! Men are so unattractive to me now that I’m older and realise I was always just following society’s expectations and my biological clock 🙄😱

monsteramunch · 26/03/2023 21:52

I've just realised I recognise your username @Mark19735 from your previous, bizarre 'Men are just like babies. He wants sex and attention. You need to divide your time and attention between the two babies in your life' post.

You told us in the same post that we, as women, should remember men can fix things and provide for us. That we should 'consider any time you spend giving him the sex and attention he wants an investment.' What a disgusting thing to say.

An archaic and simplistic view of relationship dynamics that sees everything as transactional, rather than equal and loving.

I think you're a lost cause when it comes to acknowledging and understanding women's rights to be honest, mate.

I'm not sure what you get out of posting on here other than a strange satisfaction that your posts offend or unsettle women to be honest.

JudgeRudy · 26/03/2023 21:52

Mark19735 · 26/03/2023 12:28

That's quite a leap - from me saying sex matters, to you concluding that men are better suited to being CEOs. I never said that.

But then, I expect you know I didn't actually suggest that and you just wanted to keep the conversation going as a gambit, perhaps?

But, seeing as you asked (and totally off-topic, by the way - but you are the OP so I guess it's your thread):

Airline pilot. Training costs of £200k plus. Starting salary is subsistence wage. Probability of a male trainee being able to amortise those costs over a 40 year working life - X%. Probably of a female trainee doing the same - Y%.
Y is almost always lower than X. Because, you know, evolutionary factors, hormones, teratogenic risks of long-term exposure to ionizing radiation at high altitude, other reproductive health factors, e.g. jet lag and changes to circadian rhythms, challenges with nursing babies whilst away etc. Then, for good measure, add in the differences in how men and women age, the differing likelihoods of contracting long-term sickness that affects suitability for work at altitude such as osteoporosis etc.. Followed by the requirements to maintain flying currency and recency to maintain an Air Transport Pilot's License, and the costs of simulator time, check flights, and lower first-time pass rates that accompany skill fade, etc. And that's before you factor in the societal factors such as extended periods of maternity leave, the stress of being a parent to a young family whilst working in differing time-zones from one day to the next. Bottom line is there are biological and social reasons why female pilots will on average have a shorter career in the cockpit than male pilots. The economics of how pilot training is funded means that only the already very wealthy would consider it a sensible economic decision. As a result, women account for about 5% of the world's commercial pilots. Sex matters.

I used Airline pilot because a) I know the industry well, but also b) specifically because it has better understood biological factors than other professions. Hopefully not too many people will take issue with that. But you can substitute any profession that has high initial and mid-career training costs borne by the individual (post-graduate qualifications, MBAs, etc.) and the same financial asymmetry will apply. And you can also substitute any profession where "nights out of bed" is a significant factor - offshore oil and gas engineer, naval architect, firefighter and you'll see similar imbalances.

If you take a more generous and broader definition of 'profession' to include 'the trades' the roles where numbers of men dominate increases further. Forestry, construction, mining, electricity generation and distribution, waste and waste water treatment, heavy industry ... all dominated by men. These jobs are dangerous, dirty, difficult (physically) and most often, done by men. It's in the clean, safe, steady, indoor jobs (CEOs, finance, medicine, academia and education, public sector administration) where women have been beating down the door and claiming for themselves the 'rights' to access these roles (and quite rightly, too). But I stand by the comment you took umbrage to - in most professions there are clearly identifiable factors (e.g. numbers of applicants, duration in role, reasons for leaving the industry) where sex differences between men and women explain any observed differences in the numbers of men and women thriving in those roles. Because sex has always mattered. It's taken TRAs to make the women who liked the useful fiction that sex didn't matter (when it came to getting better pay and cushier jobs) realise this.

@Mark19735 Sex does matter. There's no judgement here other than to say what you've listed are facts. This has nothing to do with personal feelings towards bio or gendered women.

Giggorata · 26/03/2023 21:52

Tedious man.And he can't sing.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 26/03/2023 22:02

I've just given an example of a right they lost...a right to a single sex gentlemen's club. You may not consider it a right or important but a considerable number of men did (do)....but we went with the majority and ones we got used to it we 'settled'.
I really don't want to bring my own beliefs and feelings into this as they probably don't align with any mainstream views...I was just commenting that BB seems to comparing two situations that have a lot in common.

Except they don't. For 2 reasons.

Firstly, men had private clubs for preference. Many of the rights women are currently having to defend are not for simple preference - they are for safety.

And secondly - men did not lose that right. They are still perfectly entitled to have private gentlemen's clubs. See page 9: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-clubs-and-associations-quick-start-guide Whereas women have in practice lost, for example, single sex hospital wards and rape crisis centres. And Stonewall et al are pushing for those rights be lost in law as well as in practice (and spend a lot of time persuading organisations that the has law already taken those rights away).

Private clubs and associations: quick start guide

This quick start guide tells you how the Equality Act regulates the way in which private clubs and other types of associations treat their members…

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-clubs-and-associations-quick-start-guide