If you didn’t go to a private school, what do you think about those who did?

[hanginds]

Do you feel they had an unfair advantage? Do you care? Do you think they don’t know about the real world?

I really struggle to connect with colleagues who were privately educated as they seem almost entitled to the job. They seem fearless about finding alternative work if needs be, yet I just don’t have that confidence. I assume it’s their background as it’s the only difference between us in the academic/work context.

@whumpthereitis and this is why it will never happen. There might be an attempt at it but the legal battles will probably last longer than a Labour government would be in power and then it would be quietly dropped, or dropped with loud calls if the Tories got back in. In fact I could see them putting it in a manifesto ie scrap the VAT and reinstate charitable status.

I think our schools possibly have a better social economic mix because we don’t have a “choice” as such and you don’t “apply” for schools, you simply go to the local school.

The schools are only as good as their intake is. Everybody feels sorry for "the poor", but at the end of the day - those better off don't really want to mix with them.

The idea that price increases will lead to lots of parents homeschooling with tutors or sending their kids overseas is ridiculous; these options cost even more than private schools!

The main outcome will be an increase in tutoring as a supplement to school (shadow schooling). There will be an increased number of kids going to state school, but since pupil numbers are starting to drop anyway (and some private school teachers will go into the state system as well), I don’t think there will be any dramatic effects in most areas.

yep, it’s nowhere as simple as just scrapping private schools, or stripping them of charitable status with the stroke of a pen. In reality it would be an expensive and lengthy arseache, and one they’re by no means guaranteed to achieve.

and yes, the unintended consequences are also issues.

I don’t think there will be any dramatic effects in most areas.

It will be dramatic to those who don't fit the mainstream system - like those in alternative schools or with additional needs that state schools can't always meet.

The idea that price increases will lead to lots of parents homeschooling with tutors or sending their kids overseas is ridiculous; these options cost even more than private schools!

User1477 it’s not price increases that would lead to this, but the banning of private education (see whumpthereitis’s post at 12.38)
If you’ve read this thread and many others on the subject, you will know that plenty of people are in favour of this - as are some Labour MPs

I said ‘some’, because there will be. I cannot speak as to the numbers, but yes, there will be former private school pupils being educated at home by tutors instead. Some kids I met at private school were in fact previously taught in exactly that way. There would also be the founding of aforementioned cooperatives where parents would share the cost.

My point is that that banning private schools, even if achievable (if indeed any government is sufficiently motivated to do so, as opposed to merely paying lip service to the idea in a manifesto), is not going to be the silver bullet some people are seemingly anticipating it to be 🤷🏻‍♀️

Fee rises as a result of VAT will not be as high as that, because private schools are already planning all sorts of measures to limit price increases.

Putting VAT on school fees will not have any cataclysmic effect, in all likelihood - more like, just continuing a trend that has been ongoing for the past 30 years.

Private school fees have increased at a far higher rate than inflation since the late 1990s; meanwhile, there are fewer small children being born over the last 10 years. Finally, rising house prices mean that parents increasingly want to put aside money for their kids’ housing deposits, and concern about the long term effects of the aging society mean we all need to put money into our private pensions. All this is squeezing private schools anyway. VAT will add a bit of extra pressure, but most of the challenges are coming from other things. When some small private schools fall, however, I can already guarantee that VAT!!! Will immediately be blamed as the sole cause.

Private schools are not responsible for the fall in the birth rate, the house price issue or the demographic challenge, but I do think that some of them have made some poor choices in terms of over the top facilities and “experience inflation.” The grade inflation that a lot of (not all) private schools indulged in in 2021 wasn’t very clever, either, in hindsight: it has prompted Oxbridge to take a more cynical stance on private schools’ grades on a long-term basis, and also aroused a lot of anger, meaning there will not be a huge amount of sympathy if/when a few of the smaller schools go to the wall.

This 6% that is being quoted I believe applies to primary, it is 8% for secondary and in some areas up to 30-40% are privately educated (50% in one London borough). It would make a HUGE difference to the state schools in those areas if private schools were phased out.
If you also altered school admission criteria so it wasn't based on distance the 'bubbles' would disappear.

There are lovely areas in outer London, one that I really wanted to move to, but the schools were perceived to be awful. The area had a lovely atmosphere, diverse, friendly, surely the schools couldn't be that bad? But it's because the disparity in wealth in the area was extreme, so private schools creamed off a third of the children and the ones that couldn't afford it move away for secondary, leaving sink schools.

I know this thought could frighten a lot of parents that would feel their choice had been completely taken away. What? I can't buy better education? I can't buy a house and guarantee a school?? Travesty! But that is the reality for most of the population.
And actually, the schools would all improve, there would be a mix of ability's and economic privelege. Some would get tutored at home, not a problem. Very few would move abroad!

I cant be the only one who thinks how refreshing it would be if everyone just went to one of their local schools, that were all quite similar and not awful. Less social wrangling and resentment, more equal opportunity.
The reason people buy private education is partly because they don't want their kids to miss out on a perceived advantage, well what if those didn't exist? A PP said in her area in Scotland, you just go to your local school, how refreshing. And some people have mentioned they have to forgo all luxuries to pay the fees, well if the local schools were better they wouldn't need to. You can still tutor your kids, and help them at home, fine, but at least everyone has access to the same education 30 hours a week.

There are countries in Europe where private schools don't exist and many where there are far fewer of them. The inequality in this country is extreme and widening under this government and it breeds resentment and hatred, the poor get poorer, crime increases, it benefits noone.

'Putting VAT on school fees will not have any cataclysmic effect, '

Great, so get rid of the fake charitable status of these businesses who shouldn't be entitled to charity tax breaks, as they aren't charities.

A PP said in her area in Scotland, you just go to your local school, how refreshing.

Peppadog
There are loads of private schools in Scotland and according to Wikipedia
The figure is significantly higher in Edinburgh, with around 1 in 4 pupils educated at an independent school, the highest proportion in the UK.[6]

I was just referencing what a PP said about her particular area, that you don't get the catchment bubbles, I don't know anything about the education system in Scotland specifically. I was just pointing out how refreshing it sounded, maybe I misunderstood that posters situation. I feel quite strongly about this having moved from an area where the bubbles around state schools was extreme. It was the equivalent of the private school issue, as people were essentially buying a better state school. The conversations around it started in reception, with those that could afford to move into catchment and those that couldn't. People starting to get anxious when they realised they lived 0.1 mile outside of it, it wasn't nice.

@Peppadog but if private schools were abolished people wouldn't just stay in their areas and put their children in the local school. The schools they had previously been paying 18k a year to avoid! I certainly wouldn't be doing that. I would be downsizing and moving into an area with top schools. Or forming a homeschooling co operative with like minded families.

It’s not that easy. There have been cases that have affirmed, and reaffirmed, the charitable status of private schools. The decision as to whether they qualify as charities, incidentally, is not made by the government, but by the independent charity commission.

you’re naive if you believe this is something any one government can simply do without considerable difficulty, time, and indeed expense.

This is from United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights:"Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children"

I don’t know whether UN diktats carry any legal weight or whether such pronouncements can be ignored by member states.

@Southwestten my understanding of that right is that parents can choose to home educate. So if a parent doesn't like the school offerings available they have the right to educate their child in their own way at home or as part of a home ed community. It means no child will ever be forced into school, a very important right in my opinion!
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's what it means.

peppadog yes that sounds plausible but home ed isn’t allowed in Germany.
Maybe the UN has suggestions rather than rules.

Newsflash - Scotland is not just Edinburgh. Edinburgh is basically London of the north. Edinburgh city is very, very affluent.

The demographics of Edinburgh are stark - average house prices in Edinburgh are £100k more than Glasgow, despite them being so close.

I wasn’t really speaking about cities anyway, I specifically said “where I live” - I live in a large urban area but not a city.

Right - but when an intake is an entire town; there is naturally a greater mix. And if you have an option of state funded religious schools, with open admission policies, you don’t have people choosing to pay to send their kids to Catholic schools.

What this does is decreases the difference in attainment between schools. Unfortunately though; what you do still see is that rich children generally outperform poor children - even when they all go to school together. “Closing the attainment gap” in Scotland is more about helping the gap within each school, rather than between schools.

I just noticed a poster earlier said 'a school is only as good as their intake'
I don't think this is actually true at all. A friend of mine is a headteacher at a school in a very rough area and she has transformed that school. She has a very strict approach, strict on uniform, strict on bullying and strict on misbehaving.
She has a one strike and your out policy in class, so if someone is warned once and mishaves again they are sent home for a period of time. Every teacher has to follow that approach.
Some might not agree with that but her results have far exceeded any the school has achieved before, her progress score is higher than some of the best performing schools in the area, as the children feel inspired. The pupils can learn and feel safe and the parents are happy. She tells the parents on the open day what her policies are and if they don't like it they can choose another school in the area, which there are lots of.

I agree.

Here in Scotland, we compare schools with a made up (or random, unnamed - I’m not sure which!) school which has a similar demographic makeup. So it lets you see if the poorest pupils (or any other group!) are performing better or worse than expected.

It also compares many metrics; for example it might look at exam results obviously. But it also looks at things like where they go after school (jobs/college/uni/unemployment) and literacy and numeracy levels. So it’s not just about attainment or “grades”

Is your friend Katharine Birbalsingh?

Katherine Birbalsingh has incredible value added in her school. I think all those strict rules would cause my anxious child to have a nervous breakdown though. Actually he probably would have refused to attend.

@DanceMonster no I've never heard of her, although I just googled. I'm having a read about her now!

I don't think my friend is quite this good 🤣