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Original poster

To think the Tories are clever?

402 replies

ClassicLib · 16/03/2023 19:25

They are introducing a massive pension tax cuts for their rich mates in the city, and selling it by claiming that it might also persuade a few rich NHS consultants to delay their retirement to their second homes in France for a couple of years.
And who is paying for this? Why you & me, of course, because our basic rate & higher rate tax allowances are being frozen until 2028. This is actually a massive income tax increase for ordinary working people, of course. And the media have fallen for their spin.
That’s smart politics…

OP posts:
ScruffyGiraffes · 19/03/2023 00:51

jcyclops · 18/03/2023 21:09

Labour introduced the pension restrictions for higher earners in 2006. The annual allowance (AA) was set at £215,000 and the lifetime allowance (LTA) at £1.5m (according to CPI inflation these would be £340,000 and £2.37m by now).
They tended to increase annually and when George Osborn started cutting these allowances in 2011/2012, AA had reached £255,000 and LTA £1.8m.

The current levels are AA £40,000 and LTA £1.0731m and the budget will increase the AA to £60,000 and abolish the LTA.

In 2016 the conservatives introduced the Tapered Annual Allowance (TAA). By now this means that for those earning salaries over £240,000 only annual pension contributions of £4000 are tax free. The budget will increase this to £10,000 for salaries over £260,000. These TAA rules largely make the LTA irrelevant, which is why it can be abolished, and it is these TAA rules which mean the very high earners will not benefit massively from the budget changes.

As a few previous posters have pointed out, these pension rules have badly affected experienced NHS consultants and GPs due to the good pension schemes to which they belong. They have resulted in many retiring early or working part time as their pension hits the punitive limits. If you want an example consider this:

Consider a Senior Doctor aged 58 earning £120,000 who has built up a pension that will pay a lump sum of £150,000 and a pension of £60,000 if they retire now (and all these figures will increase significantly if they continue to work until 66). The pension rules apply to defined contribution schemes, and for a defined benefit scheme like the doctor's the equivalent amount is calculated as lump sum + 20 x pension, so in this case 150,000+20x£60,000 = 1,350,000. This is over the current LTA so the doctor faces a tax charge of 25% on £381,000 (1350000-10731000) ie. a tax charge of £95,250. This charge reduces the doctor's pension by 95250/20 = £4762.50/year so the doctor will receive £55,237.50/year instead of the £60,000 to which they are entitled. If they continue working the deduction will increase every year. Is it any wonder doctors in their fifties and sixties are retiring early or going part time?

Surely it is better for society if this doctor with valuable experience continues to treat us (whilst also paying over £45,000 income tax and NI each year).

Yep. And that doctor is bloody lucky already because to achievr that same £60k pa index linked pension someone would need to save double that amount into a DB scheme, because the 20 multiplier is far deflated from reality and should be around 40. So the idea that they should them have an opt out of the LTA yet it should apply to everyone else - when they already have vastly beneficial treatment anyway - is beyond absurd. What is obvious was that the LTA was FAR too low. Unsurprising given it was pretty much cut in half then never uprated for inflation. The level proposed now is only to restore to 2010 levels! No inflation accounted for. I am very, very far from a Tory supporter but anybody criticising this policy clearly does not understand pensions or the economy or the desperate need we have to encourage people to save more.

Emotionalstorm · 19/03/2023 00:53

Tutulechapeau · 18/03/2023 18:17

@Emotionalstorm you mate are a bullshitter. You clearly post goady crap or are tone deaf. Restructuring lawyer whose hubby earns 10 x what you do my arse.
Rishi has much more charisma than Blair. It's unfair to compare the two
Most people are getting a payrise this year so why can't the MPs have one ? £2k isn't much, after all
Most of the country hate labour. It's a soul deep hatred
NHS -They should just sell it off and put it out of its misery. I would be interested in buying some
Because it's not true but Mumsnet is full if (sic) left wing communist fans
Just several of your contributions

Law firm partners earn a lot more than associates. Why is that so hard to believe?

Emotionalstorm · 19/03/2023 00:55

MegaManic · 18/03/2023 19:21

This is the opposite of how I see it - I think this country is more left of centre than right and a lot of vocal people are willing to say how much they hate the tories, I really never hear people saying they hate labour, some disagreed with Corbyn but beyond that I have never heard it.

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I guess we both surround ourselves with people who think and vote the same way.

Emotionalstorm · 19/03/2023 00:58

Notonthestairs · 18/03/2023 20:29

Conservative supporters seem very keen to wait as long as possible to the next GE. Why so little confidence?

Because a lot can change between now and the latest possible date. Never underestimate labour's ability to mess it up for themselves.

ScruffyGiraffes · 19/03/2023 01:26

Alexandra2001 · 18/03/2023 19:00

@ScruffyGiraffes Insult away, seems the only way you can make an argument... but the cost of life style choices are not "tax rates" which is where we differ.
I can't read what is behind a pay wall & i told you i had subsequently read the thread.

Having children and going to Uni are not compulsory, someone with no student loans and no children is better off even when going into higher tax bands, ultimately they knew they would have repay loans, pay childcare and lose CB but these are not "effective taxes" anymore than if they took out an extra mortgage and then had less money than a lower paid worker.

Your graph demonstrate this perfectly

So, i don't agree with your argument, there is no pretence.

You clearly do not understand what an effective tax rate is. This isn't a term I have invented. 🤣 I am done talking to you as you clearly have no understanding at all of economics or interest in reading the many articles available (many for free) to educate yourself, so I'll leave you to your ignorance.

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 05:36

Clavinova · 18/03/2023 21:50

I hope you will join me in writing to the government urging them to rethink their immigration policy which goes against the need for a few more youngsters in the UK

Alas - I think they left their credit cards at home - but room for a few more if they are skilled/educated. I'm not totally happy with the Rwanda scheme myself but Labour haven't come up with a better plan.

I do like it when we are in agreement, this is truly excellent. We should be welcoming migrants particularly those who have shown skill and initiative to get here.

www.moneysupermarket.com/credit-cards

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 05:40

Having children and going to Uni are not compulsory,

But having children and drinking years off your life away are ones civic duty. Boris is excellent at both and therefore is a fine example to all of us.

Mentalpiece · 19/03/2023 06:08

The Tories are clever indeed.
They're clever at making their mates richer and the rest of us poorer.
They're also clever at lying to and taking the piss out of the voters.
They're not CONservatives for nothing.

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 06:36

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 05:40

Having children and going to Uni are not compulsory,

But having children and drinking years off your life away are ones civic duty. Boris is excellent at both and therefore is a fine example to all of us.

Not sure where you get that from?

If it is true and Boris wants to drink himself to death ( just think of all that alcohol duty going into the exchequer ! ) then his dependents will get all his money and the DWP will save having to pay out on his State pension.

I thought all you Labour Luvvies supported re-distribution of wealth ? 🤔

malificent7 · 19/03/2023 06:41

I know many more people who hate the tories and love labour tbh.

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 06:42

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 06:36

Not sure where you get that from?

If it is true and Boris wants to drink himself to death ( just think of all that alcohol duty going into the exchequer ! ) then his dependents will get all his money and the DWP will save having to pay out on his State pension.

I thought all you Labour Luvvies supported re-distribution of wealth ? 🤔

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Here is an example.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/university-drinking-culture-alcohol-sober-b2069339.html

Also

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/07/oxford-bullingdon-club-boris-johnson-sexism-violence-bullying-culture

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 06:46

Mentalpiece · 19/03/2023 06:08

The Tories are clever indeed.
They're clever at making their mates richer and the rest of us poorer.
They're also clever at lying to and taking the piss out of the voters.
They're not CONservatives for nothing.

Oh just change the record will you?

Obviously you're not old enough to have experienced a Labour government 🙄

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 06:48

malificent7 · 19/03/2023 06:41

I know many more people who hate the tories and love labour tbh.

We established earlier in the thread that the hatred of Labour is deeply engrained in the British, who would much rather be doffing their caps at their betters.

www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 06:48

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 06:42

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He was'nt much worse than a lot of Uni students, haven't you been to Uni and seen them all acting soft in the Student's Union ?

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 06:53

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 06:48

He was'nt much worse than a lot of Uni students, haven't you been to Uni and seen them all acting soft in the Student's Union ?

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Indeed, I have had the misfortune of seeing how the Bullingdon Club behave first hand, its not pleasant and many seem to think that qualifies them to run the country.

Alexandra2001 · 19/03/2023 06:56

Clavinova · 18/03/2023 21:50

I hope you will join me in writing to the government urging them to rethink their immigration policy which goes against the need for a few more youngsters in the UK

Alas - I think they left their credit cards at home - but room for a few more if they are skilled/educated. I'm not totally happy with the Rwanda scheme myself but Labour haven't come up with a better plan.

Good to read!

Even from an economic pov, seems stupid to deport skilled migrants, why not give them a 1 to 3 year work visa?

Whether this policy will get off the ground (literally) is another matter & may well decide the result of the next election.

Mentalpiece · 19/03/2023 07:00

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 06:46

Oh just change the record will you?

Obviously you're not old enough to have experienced a Labour government 🙄

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I'm 61!!

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 07:02

Mentalpiece · 19/03/2023 07:00

I'm 61!!

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But did you experience Labour in government?
If you had you would know just how awful the government from the last 13 years has been?

Mentalpiece · 19/03/2023 07:04

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 07:02

But did you experience Labour in government?
If you had you would know just how awful the government from the last 13 years has been?

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Yes, I actually voted labour when Tony Blair got into power.
How can I not have experienced a labour government when I live in the UK??

jgw1 · 19/03/2023 07:07

Mentalpiece · 19/03/2023 07:04

Yes, I actually voted labour when Tony Blair got into power.
How can I not have experienced a labour government when I live in the UK??

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Does Tony Blair know what a woman is? Does MIchael Foot?
Starmer doesn't.
Also But Jeremy Corbyn.

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 07:07

Here are some others who feel/felt qualified to "run the country" - run it into the ground more like 🙄

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10765041/Labour-MP-launched-drunken-tirade-against-Tory-asking-review-Starmers-lockdown-beers.html

www.businessinsider.com/neil-coyle-labour-mp-accused-of-racism-westminster-bar-2022-2?r=US&IR=T

ndependent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mp-drunk-medication-flight-plane-armistice-day-b1955856.html

sourcenews.scot/scottish-labour-mps-probably-the-worst-for-drinking-former-house-of-commons-barman-says/

www.thesun.co.uk/news/4945392/labour-mp-drunk-commons-row-brexit-debate/

and of course the delectable Ms Brabin who appears to have come straight to the House after a night out on the town......

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/tracy-brabin-dress-labour-handmaids-tale-shoulder-twitter-a9324701.html

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 07:10

Mentalpiece · 19/03/2023 07:04

Yes, I actually voted labour when Tony Blair got into power.
How can I not have experienced a labour government when I live in the UK??

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You could be too young to have lived under one....

Anyway it's a moot point whether or not Tony Blair was Labour, most saw him as a "Red Tory" 🙂

Mentalpiece · 19/03/2023 07:15

Wontbringlulu · 19/03/2023 07:10

You could be too young to have lived under one....

Anyway it's a moot point whether or not Tony Blair was Labour, most saw him as a "Red Tory" 🙂

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I agree with you there about him being a red Tory.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing ☹️

MarshaBradyo · 19/03/2023 07:34

MegaManic · 18/03/2023 19:21

This is the opposite of how I see it - I think this country is more left of centre than right and a lot of vocal people are willing to say how much they hate the tories, I really never hear people saying they hate labour, some disagreed with Corbyn but beyond that I have never heard it.

Show quote history

Well this will change depending on who and what you read etc some might have said similar re Brexit and not knowing anyone and then surprised at loss.

Plus it hasn’t just been Corbyn who had a fairly big defeat but previous GEs too.

RedHelenB · 19/03/2023 07:40

Florissant · 16/03/2023 19:32

I have no idea whether or not they're clever but they know what a woman is, which is more than can be said for Labour, the Lib Dems or the Greens. And that's a pretty low bar.

Yet it's under the Tories that all this is happening. Can't believe anyone thinks they care about anything than making themselves richer.